Never look in brood?

[alldigging]

What happens if you never look in the brood?

(Apart from missing queen cells and waking up to discover your bees have flirted off)

Will they glue it all together so that you can't get it apart?
Was reading about excess brace comb the other day and wondered how bad it'd get if you didn't do anything.

The warre hive works on this principal doesn't it - Although you let them build their own combs so it's just how they want it anyway?

 

[drex]

You end up with unmanaged bees.
everything stuck.
Risk of swarms
risk of disease and pests

Warre has top bars, and if lucky or well managed, bees will build straight comb on those, but might well stick them to walls. Emile Warre, did not advocate "never" inspecting
.
I run nationals and TBH's and have middle of road philosophy about " conventional beekeeping" v "natural"

 

[Brosville]

Amongst conventional beekeepers it is deemed heresy, and all sorts of evil outcomes are predicted - in practice it works well for many.

If you're not attempting to thwart their natural swarming instincts, there's no need to worry about "missing things" through not constantly ripping their hive apart - there is a simple tool designed to cut through any unwanted "adhesions" should you decide to delve inside.

I'd suggest Googling "Nestduftwärmebindung" for a full explanation of "essential nest heat and atmosphere" to explain the reasoning behind leaving the brood nest alone.

I have heard it said that you don't need to cut up a kitten to find out if it's healthy - observation of the "comings and goings" can tell you a great deal about the colony's health, and in the case of a Kenyan top bar hive it's really easy to "have a peep" by pulling back the follower boards, rather than disturbing the brood area.

"Unmanaged bees" - how splendid! Why on earth should I seek to "control" them? - I'm happy for them to swarm as they desire, build what comb they want, have as many drones as they feel necessary, and I like to leave their essential nest heat and atmosphere undisturbed - and certainly wouldn't contemplate midwinter "treatments" of the colony with oxalic.

"and if lucky or well managed, bees will build straight comb on those" - think about it - it really doesn't matter! - if you're not forever hauling it apart it doesn't matter in which direction the comb runs, when you remove the top box as your honey harvest you're going to cut the comb out anyway......(Warre users don't tend to use extractors)

 

[enrico]

This is what could happen!
E

 

[jackbee]

think you're missing a few frames there enrico

 

[BeeNice]

It's not the comb that would be a problem but the propolis, which can glue everything together which would be very difficult to get apart. The comb will get old and diseased, the bees will die out (varroa) and be replaced by another swarm, the wax moth will come in and clear out the old comb, and life goes on, but the bees will live shorter lives. With the Warre you are always taking off the old comb as honey stores so it is always getting replaced. With the amount of swarms this year there may not be many bees left, my bees are still building queen cell in late August! even though they have a new good laying queen.
steven

 

[Brosville]

Which is fairly typical of the doom and gloom predictions given by conventional beekeepers about the outcome of keeping bees in a Warre in a fairly "hands off" style which is not borne out in practice.

The comb doesn't get "old and diseased", in a Warre it is regularly completely replaced by the bees (you nadir the hive, put an empty box/boxes on the bottom, the honey is removed from the top box along with the wax, which is not put back in the hive) - the boxes are travelling "up"
In my experience, neither varroa nor wax moth are a problem, bees thrive in Warres, and stay remarkably healthy

 

[Tdf]

Amongst conventional beekeepers it is deemed heresy, and all sorts of evil outcomes are predicted - in practice it works well for many.

If you're not attempting to thwart their natural swarming instincts, there's no need to worry about "missing things" through not constantly ripping their hive apart - there is a simple tool designed to cut through any unwanted "adhesions" should you decide to delve inside.

I'd suggest Googling "Nestduftwärmebindung" for a full explanation of "essential nest heat and atmosphere" to explain the reasoning behind leaving the brood nest alone.

I have heard it said that you don't need to cut up a kitten to find out if it's healthy - observation of the "comings and goings" can tell you a great deal about the colony's health, and in the case of a Kenyan top bar hive it's really easy to "have a peep" by pulling back the follower boards, rather than disturbing the brood area.

"Unmanaged bees" - how splendid! Why on earth should I seek to "control" them? - I'm happy for them to swarm as they desire, build what comb they want, have as many drones as they feel necessary, and I like to leave their essential nest heat and atmosphere undisturbed - and certainly wouldn't contemplate midwinter "treatments" of the colony with oxalic.

"and if lucky or well managed, bees will build straight comb on those" - think about it - it really doesn't matter! - if you're not forever hauling it apart it doesn't matter in which direction the comb runs, when you remove the top box as your honey harvest you're going to cut the comb out anyway......(Warre users don't tend to use extractors)

thats all grand until you get something serious and all your bees die instead of just one hive

 

[Brosville]

That can happen with any management system, and I've not heard that Warres are more prone than any other sort of hive.........

As I said, there's an awful lot of "doom and gloom" predictions from people who use conventional methods, who've never tried more "hands off" management techniques, or different sorts of hives.

There is a common thread amongst many people who don't have varroa (and other) problems - and it is the unmolested brood nest (often along with such things as allowing swarming, not culling drones etc) - I've read reports from all round the globe of such methods being used successfully - I find that sufficiently interesting to be an avenue worthy of further research

 

[Finman]

.
Wow! What a stupid question, I thought first.

But then I remembered my kerb hive 48 years ago.
It is solid package and you cannot draw combs and look them.

There is a 4 inch hole on top and then on that put a super.

Nowadays it is impossible to nurse them. Diseases are so common.

 

[enrico]

think you're missing a few frames there enrico

You think!!
Not my hive just one I was asked to go look at?!
Got it sorted!
E

 

[milkermel]

someone mentioned that swarming isnt an issue. And for the bees point of view i dont disagree, however bear a thought for what happens when they swarm off fly a large number of bees who set up residence somewhere new -Great! Until it is in someones home who then calls a pestie to have them destroyed. Bees can not always be removed from where they have taken up residence and they also can not always be left where they are. So what then happens! they have to be destroyed incuring not only the cost of that but the extra cost that you then have to make it safe so that no other bees can go in and rob stores and recieve secondary poisoning. OH has turned away lots of jobs due to the risk of customers not doing the job properly and then some angry beek getting the humph because his bees have robbed a dead colony. The loss of money isnt an issue, however the fact that my hubby cant give customer satisfaction is a disapointment to him, he trys to explain to people but it has cost him long term contracts and customers have given contract to someone who was happy to destroy colonies in walls.

 

[Finman]

There is a common thread amongst many people who don't have varroa (and other) problems - and it is the unmolested brood nest (often along with such things as allowing swarming, not culling drones etc) - I've read reports from all round the globe of such methods being used successfully - I find that sufficiently interesting to be an avenue worthy of further research

OH BOY! One of those natural beekeepers' lies

when varroa arrived to my country,.it was here a huge amount of beekeepers which only took honey from their one or two hive. If hive died, next summer arrived a swarm again. We had a quite big black bee population with that system.

When varroa arrived, those hives died in 2 years. Owners never knew what happened.
Then swarms ceased. Hives rottened and colapsed down. Hives were too small that Italian swarm can settle to hives.

Existence of black bee colapsed to varroa.
It is too furious to give medication.


According national reports same happened in every country. Varroa whipped 90% out feral hives. Nowadays ferals are escaped swarms.

Natural beekeepers have their own dreams and their story never ends.
Guys have selective memory.

.

 

[Cazza]

Never looking in the brood does not mean not managing varroa.

My mentor many years ago never looked in the brood. He had varroa and treated accordingly. His bees were healthy and he managed swarms naturally. Honey crops were good and problems were few.
Cazza

 

[Brosville]

All this alarmism! - I've not had "problems" with swarming - my view is "whoopee new colony"- often they'll fly 20' into what has now been christened the "swarm bush", where they'll hang a few feet above ground until rehomed..... Admittedly I am lucky in that I live deep in the sticks where the neighbours are intelligent enough to view swarming bees as one of nature's wonders. It isn't a "problem", it's where we get new natural colonies, and despite all the attempts by many beekeepers to stifle this natural impulse, the bees will just say "sod it" and swarm anyway

I'm not porkifying - many people do not have varroa problems, and (as I've said several times), many who don't leave the brood nest alone and use (more) natural methods.

I've no idea of what the beekeeping problems are in Finland, and I'd be foolish to try to suggest that what works in many countries would necessarily work there (and vice versa!)

 

[Finman]

A
I've no idea of what the beekeeping problems are in Finland, and I'd be foolish to try to suggest that what works in many countries would necessarily work there (and vice versa!)

yeah. That "do nothing" does not work here. Catch and release what works fine in UK.

i knew that.

Problem is a distance between prensence and the goal.

If my goal is get 80 kg honey from hive on average, I have a proplem every year how to get it. That is the problem, how to get 80 honey on average.

if i get 15 kg honey per hive.....no. I never got on average and i do not donate jars to my friends.

If you do not mind, what you get, it is your business and you have no problems but not goals either.

If you do not open brood, it is 200% sure that you get 2 swarms. Then your foragers are gone and you do not get honey any more.

So with that method you nurse hives 12 months a year, and let the yield go! hah hah...

I know a huge amount of beekeepers who have never problems. Their yields are really low.

 

[Finman]

Never looking in the brood does not mean not managing varroa.

My mentor many years ago never looked in the brood. He had varroa and treated accordingly. His bees were healthy and he managed swarms naturally. Honey crops were good and problems were few.
Cazza

your mentor's story is nonsense. Hah hah.

My friend says that he do not treat mites at all. but then he slipped how he use thymol. Hah hah.

 

[Finman]

.
Actually everybody knows what happens if you do not nurse hives in time, like add boxes, take honey off,watch queen cells...

What is in time ..... It is not in time if the colony hang on tree top in 15 metres hight.

If it hangs at the level of 1,5 m , you arrived in time.

Noooou, metre cannot be measure of time....

 

[alldigging]

Wow! That comb is crazy!

 

[E1M]

Hmm all good food for thought, some great comments and interesting reading.

Just a question to Finman.

I could not help but read that you were mentioning hives of yours some 48 years ago.
Were you a very young Beekeeper?

You certainly have many years of experience.

Thank you for your interesting views I love to read them.