"Native"

[Little John]

Actually, this isn't what the word means. The dictionary definition (which I posted earlier) defines it as the place of birth. Its not subjective at all.

And there lies a misunderstanding. A dictionary definition doesn't 'define' in the Absolute sense being used here. It is a section of the dictionary page which sets out to describe the various meanings to which a word has been assigned.

Note the last few words: a word being assigned to one or more meanings. That is - meanings come first (they always have) - words are then specially created for them (as in German), or an existing word assigned to that meaning (as often happens in English). This is why there are so often numerous meanings listed for each word in a dictionary.

" An appreciation that ideas preceded and continue to precede language and not vice versa is important, especially in regard to written language, for in modern society there appears to be a widely held view that words have meanings, as if a word somehow 'owns' its meaning, rather than a word being a mutually recognised indicator or 'sign' of a meaning. We sometimes speak of a word having lost its meaning, rather than the meaning having lost its word. "

(From an award-winning thesis by Yours Truly)

LJ

 

[JohnRoss]

You wouldn't have a reference for that would you?
The OED definition says nothing about "assistance" given by man (or any other transport mechanism).
Your interpretation implies that there must have been a time when the species didn't exist, or evolve, there. Consequently, it may have migrated. This seems at odds with the OED definition to me because, if it migrated, it can't have been born there so can't be "native".

I will check when I get home. I studied this a few years back when everything was still done through reference books. I have them on the bookshelf somewhere at home. I did a search on the internet and while this definition is mentioned on a few websites such as http://www.askaboutireland.ie/learning-zone/primary-students/5th-+-6th-class/5th-+-6th-class-environme/leafy-lovelies/trees/native-trees/

But there is surprisingly little of substance on the subject.

 

[JohnRoss]

But there is nowhere in my understanding of the word that excludes anything that evolved here. If it evolved here them man didn't assist it in coming here therefor it is native. There is no confusion.

 

[B+.]

But there is nowhere in my understanding of the word that excludes anything that evolved here. If it evolved here them man didn't assist it in coming here therefor it is native. There is no confusion.

I agree. If something evolved (and was born) in a place, it is certainly native.
If it evolved somewhere else and was born here, is it native? According to the OED definition, it is.

 

[B+.]

A dictionary definition doesn't 'define' in the Absolute sense being used here. It is a section of the dictionary page which sets out to describe the various meanings to which a word has been assigned.

Unfortunately, the only way we have to "define" (or "describe") a word is by reference to other words.

 

[JohnRoss]

I agree. If something evolved (and was born) in a place, it is certainly native.
If it evolved somewhere else and was born here, is it native? According to the OED definition, it is.

Yes most definately, 99% of the plant and animal species here evolved somewhere else of have not evolved sufficiently since arriving here to become a distinct species. So wolves, beavers, brown bears, wild boar, Lynx cats scottish wild cats are all native. Sessile and pedunculate Oak trees while native to most of britan and Ireland are not native to other parts, (western Isles) Lewis and harris would have a very different list of native species to Kent. Your OED definition refers to people I think.

 

[MartinL]

Actually, this isn't what the word means. The dictionary definition (which I posted earlier) defines it as the place of birth. Its not subjective at all.

Not at all,

Your "definition" is 1 adjective use only. there are plenty of others in common diction, some now deemed to be offensive!

As with beekeeping one persons view is not definitive.

 

[B+.]

Your "definition" is 1 adjective use only. there are plenty of others in common diction, some now deemed to be offensive!

Thats why I provided the link in my OP. No attempt to mislead...just trying to use a definition that fits.

"1.3 An animal or plant indigenous to a place." might fit just as well.

 

[MartinL]

Thats why I provided the link in my OP. No attempt to mislead...just trying to use a definition that fits.

So you're quoting from a webpage,
NOT a hard copy of the OED ?

 

[B+.]

So you're quoting from a webpage,
NOT a hard copy of the OED ?

Yes. That makes it easy for everyone to see exactly what I'm referring to.

 

[Swarm]

Restless Natives, that was a great film.

 

[ShinySideUp]

I like this sort of discussion. It's the sort of debate I like to have in a pub over pint of beer but sadly where I live a lot of folk don't debate, they just wait to speak.

Perhaps next we can debate string theory as opposed to loop quantum gravity.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No point going to the dark side FB page then - not allowed to question anyone there - no losers, if they're wrong you get a bollocking for telling them so!!

 

[ShinySideUp]

While I have a Facebook account, I try to avoid going there as much as possible as vacuity there is endemic, some would even say 'native'

 

[Cussword]

No point going to the dark side FB page then - not allowed to question anyone there - no losers, if they're wrong you get a bollocking for telling them so!!

Nobody is wrong or loses anymore.

It's hard to believe that this is the place where I had a happy childhood. Now a happy childhood means that you get everything you ever could want.

I had reason to be in someone's lounge where they were watching a reality TV show. There was a girl screaming that she had to be included because she wanted it so much.

What ever happened to working for what you want?



So sorry for going off topic.

 

[B+.]

Nobody is wrong or loses anymore.

It's hard to believe that this is the place where I had a happy childhood. Now a happy childhood means that you get everything you ever could want.
<snip>
What ever happened to working for what you want?

So true!

 

[Nige.Coll]

I know what the term "native " means to me when used to describe bees. May as well talk about dinosaurs.
It may not have the same meaning to others but that's life.

Near native is about all some of us can hope to resurrect as the true native bees to this island all but died out nearly 100 years ago and what was left has crossbred with anything in the area. Those near native bees back in the last century had undergone many generations of selective breeding by our old skep beekeeping ancestors so who can really say with 100% accuracy what native bees are.
Morphometry and DNA testing are often used, but where have the test standards come from ? Irish black bees? Cornish black bees ? Welsh black bees ?

Skep beekeepers bred for swarming and we are now trying to breed for less swarming hard job when everything that didn't swarm enough was killed off by our beekeepers. Humans are so good at selective breeding of animals. We will never learn.

 

[Nige.Coll]

No point going to the dark side FB page then - not allowed to question anyone there - no losers, if they're wrong you get a bollocking for telling them so!!

You don't have to post there but you do.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

You don't have to post there but you do.

It's a bit like having a cracked tooth. The temptation to keep poking it is almost irresistible
The annoying thing is the utter bilge that some "people" post.

 

[Nige.Coll]

That's beekeeping.
Ask 3 beekeepers and get 5 answers, 4 of which are total rubbish and the fifth is to a different question.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk