National to Langstroth?

[JCD]

Anybody any ideas? My bees are in National hives, and someone who is interested in purchasing some of my bees has Langstroth equipment. Is there a way to transfer National brood frames, to a Langstroth hive? I can't think of one.
Thanks J

 

[Travelator]

One way of solving the problem is to do something similar to a Bailey comb change, but with two different sized boxes. Put the a box of the desired type with foundation (Langstroth, in this case) on top of the established colony and let the bees move up over the course of 3 weeks.

You need an adaptor to go between the two boxes. If you're going National-> Langstroth, a Langstroth-sized sheet of 9mm plywood with a roughly circular 16-inch hole cut in the middle would be ideal (needs to be fairly thick in order to create a bee space given that the Langstroth box on top has no bottom bee space and assuming that the National underneath has bottom bee space as opposed to top.

A more violent variation on the theme would be to do a shook swarm into the new box size and let them establish for a few weeks.

 

[pargyle]

Anybody any ideas? My bees are in National hives, and someone who is interested in purchasing some of my bees has Langstroth equipment. Is there a way to transfer National brood frames, to a Langstroth hive? I can't think of one.
Thanks J

National frames are smaller than Langstroth ... so it would be possible to screw a couple of fillets of timber inside a langstroth box (temporarily) to hang your national frames on. You would also need to reduce the inner width of the Langstroth brood box with a bit of insulation or plank of timber to stop them filling the space outside of the frames with wild comb but it would buy you a bit of time until the warmer weather comes when you have more options available.

 

[madasafish]

Mordern Beekeeping sell a conversion kit iirc.

 

[Roger]

Anybody any ideas? My bees are in National hives, and someone who is interested in purchasing some of my bees has Langstroth equipment. Is there a way to transfer National brood frames, to a Langstroth hive? I can't think of one.
Thanks J

You could wire or cable tie the National Frame to Langstroth Frame which would then hang in the Langstroth box.

I have made up some adaptor frames which are basically Langstroth top bar and sides with notch cut into sides to accommodate length of National top bar and a section of wood pinned to the inside of the Langstroth side frames to fill the gap between the National and Langstroth side bars. I then wire the two top bars together and run a wire along the bottom to keep the frame bottoms together as there are no bottom bars on the Langstroth frame.

Roger

 

[itma]

One way of solving the problem is to do something similar to a Bailey comb change, but with two different sized boxes. Put the a box of the desired type with foundation (Langstroth, in this case) on top of the established colony and let the bees move up over the course of 3 weeks.

You need an adaptor to go between the two boxes. If you're going National-> Langstroth, a Langstroth-sized sheet of 9mm plywood with a roughly circular 16-inch hole cut in the middle would be ideal (needs to be fairly thick in order to create a bee space given that the Langstroth box on top has no bottom bee space and assuming that the National underneath has bottom bee space as opposed to top.

A more violent variation on the theme would be to do a shook swarm into the new box size and let them establish for a few weeks.

-ish.

Bit early for any such stuff yet though.
Plenty time to make your interface board, with appropriate rim(s). Also think out your middle entrance detail if going the Bailey route.

Thornes sell a basic board for less than £4, but you should be able to do better!
http://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=6338

Does your Langstroth man have any nice fumigated drawn comb to move them onto? (That could speed up the process, or at least allow it to happen earlier.) He should be able to provide the Langstroth QX ...

 

[drstitson]

two options - MB converters (or just some pine battens cut to size for side and top bar and a couple of cable ties)

or a simple eke to allow the frames to run across the hive as per below:

 

[Anduril]

As the above. I have seen it done with scrap wood made in the shape of a langstroth frame with all the space filled except the area to insert a national frame. The cheapest way is as Roger describes using an empty frame for the national frame, no extra expense.

 

[Bosleeu]

Simplest way would be a shook swarm when weather and bee numbers allow. You can use the brood frames to strengthen your own colonies.

 

[Chris B]

Simplest way would be a shook swarm when weather and bee numbers allow. You can use the brood frames to strengthen your own colonies.

Why mess about doing it any other way?

 

[pargyle]

Why mess about doing it any other way?

Presumably because the OP wants to sell a colony including the frames ? Not a package.

 

[Bosleeu]

Presumably because the OP wants to sell a colony including the frames ? Not a package.

Yes, it looks like she does, but:

For me a shook swarm and a package are two different things.

I just think it is the quickest and most straightforward way to transfer bees to different frames. Shake them all into the Lang box, give them the Lang frames and a bit of food and in no time you can have a colony in a box full of new comb and brood for the buyer to collect. Phoretic mites can also be treated if that way inclined.

The two main other options would be a Bailey change with a conversion board or a frame conversion kit. Whichever method you choose the Lang box will need to go to the Nat hive or vice versa.

The whole job can be done in less time than it takes to make a conversion board, let alone waiting three weeks at least for a Bailey change. Not to even mention the hassle and stress to the bees and beekeeper if you choose to convert a whole box of frames to Lang with a conversion kit.

The OP can use the brood for her other colonies if she doesn't want to destroy it., so no brood need to be wasted.

 

[JCD]

Thank you all for your replies .... I definitely want an easy option if possible, so shook swarm appears to be the answer. Will have to speak with my potential buyer and see if he would be happy with that. Why didn't I think of that!!

 

[Bosleeu]

Thank you all for your replies .... I definitely want an easy option if possible, so shook swarm appears to be the answer. Will have to speak with my potential buyer and see if he would be happy with that. Why didn't I think of that!!

Good luck......and as always, look after the queen......

 

[JCD]

My purchaser is still keen .... just one more question if allowed in this section...
what would be a fair price to ask for a 2014 colony overwintered, and lets assume average strength, (I haven't been in there yet this year) being delivered as a shook swarm? The bees are local mongrels.

 

[pargyle]

My purchaser is still keen .... just one more question if allowed in this section...
what would be a fair price to ask for a 2014 colony overwintered, and lets assume average strength, (I haven't been in there yet this year) being delivered as a shook swarm? The bees are local mongrels.

Looking at the prices being asked for Nucs that have been overwintered by the likes of Paynes etc. you should be looking at somewhere between £150 and £200 for a good colony with brood on frames and a proven laying queen. What the reduction will be for a shook swarm I've no idea but a 'package' of bees is usually about half the price of a full colony as they have a lot to do before the season starts.

What you are selling is the ability of a colony to make honey .. with honey at about £5/lb and say you got 50/60lbs reasonably conservative from a colony over the season then you do the maths ....

 

[Bosleeu]

Looking at the prices being asked for Nucs that have been overwintered by the likes of Paynes etc. you should be looking at somewhere between £150 and £200 for a good colony with brood on frames and a proven laying queen. What the reduction will be for a shook swarm I've no idea but a 'package' of bees is usually about half the price of a full colony as they have a lot to do before the season starts.

What you are selling is the ability of a colony to make honey .. with honey at about £5/lb and say you got 50/60lbs reasonably conservative from a colony over the season then you do the maths ....

Yes I agree, with factors like how strong the colony are, age of the queen, whether she is marked or not and after-sales support (if applicable) playing a role in whether you are lower or higher in that scale.

 

[Travelator]

If I was the buyer, I would be willing to pay a fair amount more for a colony with brood in all stages (ie. where I can see for myself that the queen is laying worker brood in a good pattern) as opposed to a shook swarm on foundation (where it might be possible to see the queen, but can't be completely sure if she's OK). In other words, I would pay a lot more for a colony that was shook-swarmed two weeks ago than one that was done yesterday.

In terms of price - a overwintered colony (full-size as opposed to nucleus) on almost-new comb with a marked queen is the absolute top of the range product. Over £200 sounds right to me, although I don't really know what current prices are like.

 

[Chris B]

£25 per frame full of bees in April

So £250 for something ready to burst into the supers. Scale back from that if the colony is weaker.

If doing the shook swarm then scale back another 25%.

(Don't go the shook swarm route until they are big enough to cover at least 6 or 7 frames, ideally more).

Commercial prices would be a bit higher with a good young queen.

 

[JCD]

Thank you all again .... very helpful.