Nasty Bees

[Hivemaker.]

I also read (in a mainstream book) that the sperm from various drones is stored in the Queen's spermatheca in "layers", and is used in batches rather than mixed up.

Where did you read that?

 

[Bcrazy]

Spot on Hivemaker.

Mo

 

[Ely]

Hi, my hive was recently very angry and came at my face too. They were low on stores so I fed them and have since become much milder.Don't do anything too drastic because there could be a good reason for them being agitated that you may need to find out. Hope this helps

 

[kazmcc]

I don't understand ours, they were a bit pingy and followey a few weeks back, so I started using a tiny bit of smoke. I only did it twice, and they stopped doing it altogether. Beginning of June they started uncapping everything and really going through it, but then it is a large colony (see recent pics ) then the Q- incident, yet they remained pussycats throughout! I thought Q- colonies were nightmares? Not these bees.

 

[Bcrazy]

i think i am right in saying that the sperm is stored in the spermatheca under special physiological conditions and possibly have a depressed metabolism for energy saving.
The distribution of semen in the spermatheca is determined by genetic markers. Semen of the same type cluster within the spermatheca.

I am not sure if the sperm stays whole from one drone or wheather it mixes with other sper from other drones. I will look this up and come back.
Mo

 

[adrian wilford]

brood hatch in 6 weeks? wrong advice, just check how long it takes for brood to emerge.

 

[BearChief]

Have they always been like that?

Are they hungry? Are you sure there is a laying Queen in there, and if so is she laying a good pattern? How old is she?

Is there anything about you (don't take this personally!) that they might object to. I had to lay off the aftershave when it became clear that one of my colonies did not like the formaldehyde.

I also had a hive like that, which turned objectionable about this time last year. Got so that I hated going to check them - to the point that I almost gave up beekeeping all together. In the end, I left them to their own devices (did only the most cursory checks, though I naturally treated them for varroa during the autumn/winter) and they calmed down over the winter (superceded too). This year they are much better behaved - though still a bit sparky. The only difference with me is that they are now the first hive I check rather than the last. Seems to make a difference to them if they get first attention.

Hi,

The hive is queen right - there is plenty of brood and day old eggs.

They are in fact a VERY strong hive. We caught them as a swarm 6 weeks ago and have since swarmed again 3 weeks ago.

My other hive doesn't react to me - I don't wear aftershaves etc.

I think I will try and use a manipulation cloth, sugar solution and much more smoke when I visit them next. I also think a re queen is needed.

Thanks for all of your help

 

[DorsetB]

Interesting thread - I have an aggressive colony waiting for a new queen this week - I am having to requeen because of inbreeding and aggression (it may be of course that the hygienic behaviour is the cause of the aggression) - having gone through the suggestions here, I wonder if it might expedite things if I:

1)let all the flying bees fly back to the original site then cull them - yes I would still have nurse bees which would eventually/possibly turn to aggressive foragers, and I would then obviously have to feed more, but would this hopefully shorten this particular aggression cycle?

2) cull all the drone brood on the frames so as to minimise expansion of the drone pool (which would also double up as a much varroa higher sampling than usual)

PS - they have been bad since spring, so nothing to do with nectar flow, looking at the worsening pepperpot brood pattern queen is failing yet no queen cells (no sunken cappings though, so not a FB problem)

 

[RoseCottage]

Mo,
been reading this thread and have to take issue with some of your advice.

I assume your comment about 6 weeks to hatch is just a typo.

You suggest it is good to learn from the bees, which we all strive to do a little better as time goes by. Well earlier this year I had a colony from hell too and can categorically state that their behaviour changed when my new queen emerged from her cell and all those 'evil' bees (given to me from another hive from hell) calmed right down when the queen's pheromone kicked in. No need to worry about the lifetime of bad bees.


So, following on with your suggestion of learning from the bees, the original poster should work out why these bees are behaving in a particular way before colony killing is decided on.

Some basic questions and observation should rapidly lead to.a clearer understanding of their situation and motivation. This in turn will allow a logical plan of action based soundly on observation of the bees.

Others have suggested sensible ways to divide and conquer the aggressive bees thus enabling a basic examination of the colonies circumstances.

The end result may be a requeen with eggs from another hive (or this one) or from a locally purchased queen, and also some drone culling if really needed. There are so many factors at the moment - forage, weather, colony character, queen status, time of day, location, etc.

At this stage it would appear to be too early to advocate colony destruction...the timings are on the OP's side and such advice seems very ill considered and not based at all on the details of the OP's circumstances (rather on a set of not proven, over relied, on assumptions),

All the best,
Sam

 

[RoseCottage]

DorsetB,
I would try to understand the behaviour of your bees. Are you saying that you want to kill bees prior to introducing the new queen? Why? I would have thought that it would be wise to allow her to establish her pheromone in the colony and then assess the results.

All the best,
Sam

 

[DorsetB]

RoseCottage

In a way yes, as I suggested getting the older forager bees to fly back to the old hive, then culling them if required.

I am not an advocate of slash and burn, but as someone else pointed out earlier on, you get to dread some inspections.

This is even more the case when the next hive, less than 2 ft away (and no it's not robbing either) is a well behaved one.

You are of course right, about waiting to see if the pheromones kick in in a timely fashion, but I also have to balance letting Nature runs its course with the pub on the other side of the fence, duty of care thing.

 

[huntsman666]

Sometimes the best decision is to decide 'not' to make a decision.

Bees have been around much longer than us. When in doubt, let them sort themselves out but provide resources. Killing a colony should be the very last resort.

Most of what you were taught or studied was about maximising honey yield. A hoobyist shouldn't be bothered with this, you'll always have some for yourself, family and friends. Just like keeping a few hens and having best eggs or the odd well grown cauli and cabbage.

Beekeeping should be like gardening or rearing a family, all about nurturing and caring for things.

 

[Leigh]

I also read (in a mainstream book) that the sperm from various drones is stored in the Queen's spermatheca in "layers", and is used in batches rather than mixed up.

Where did you read that?

I'm afraid I haven't time to pin down exactly where I read it at the moment, but it is either in Rearing Queen Honey Bees by Roger A Morse, Honey By The Ton - Oliver field, or Honey Farming by Manley (I think the latter is unlikely). Hope that helps....when I do find which and where, I'll let you know!

 

[Leigh]

Found it: in the Roger Morse book on Queen rearing(chapeter 9, page 106. Amen!): "One of the most interesting features about sperm storage is that once the sperm is in the spermatheca it does not mix, but remains packed in layers. The reults of this fact are often evident in an apiary. We have observed colonies that had been gentle and easy to manage become unusually aggressive over a period of several weeks, or colonies that had used large quantities of propolis suddenly cease to do so; a queen may be producing light-coloured workers, and then one may begin to note the presence of workers of mixed colours because workers of quite a different colour are emerging. All this may occur because as a queen lays eggs she must first use the sperm from the last drone with which she mated."

In other words, last come, first served!!

 

[Steve Dyer]

Found it: in the Roger Morse book on Queen rearing(chapeter 9, page 106. Amen!): "One of the most interesting features about sperm storage is that once the sperm is in the spermatheca it does not mix, but remains packed in layers. The reults of this fact are often evident in an apiary. We have observed colonies that had been gentle and easy to manage become unusually aggressive over a period of several weeks, or colonies that had used large quantities of propolis suddenly cease to do so; a queen may be producing light-coloured workers, and then one may begin to note the presence of workers of mixed colours because workers of quite a different colour are emerging. All this may occur because as a queen lays eggs she must first use the sperm from the last drone with which she mated."

In other words, last come, first served!!

Mr Morse writes excellent bee books, but this is an example of where an assumption by an expert becomes accepted as fact. Even Mr Morse starts by making a statement of fact about sperm being "packed in layers" but at the end he says "All this may occur" which expresses some doubt.

An interesting study published in 2006 says "Genetic studies using phenotypic markers have shown that sperm from all of the mated drones become randomly distributed within the spermatheca." - the exact opposite of Mr Morse's suggestion, and, given the motility of bee sperm a far more likely situation. The full study is here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1847503/

So it appears that genetic factors in nasty bees are not variable over time, and we must look to other factors to explain variation. I have also observed that whilst re-queening often calms a nasty colony it does not always do so.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

...sperm from all of the mated drones become randomly distributed within the spermatheca.

I believe Steve Taber published a paper with this finding in the 1960's.

 

[victor meldrew]

Why would spermatozoa from differing drones not mix?
Would they remain in peer groups; a defensive ploy ?
If so ,how does AI fit into the pattern when Queen is inseminated with a pipette of mixed sperm ? Would this result in warfare and lead to failing Queens ?

I'm treading water and out of my depth

John Wilkinson

 

[Steve Dyer]

Why would spermatozoa from differing drones not mix?
Would they remain in peer groups; a defensive ploy ?
If so ,how does AI fit into the pattern when Queen is inseminated with a pipette of mixed sperm ? Would this result in warfare and lead to failing Queens ?

I'm treading water and out of my depth

John Wilkinson

There is an argument that says if the queen is laying eggs with a wide variation of genetic content then there will always be bees with differing "abilities" within the hive which may help the colony deal with differing challenges.

It's difficult to see any evolutionary advantage in a hive that is, say, aggressive and productive for the first three months and suddenly changes to being passive and lazy, and then changes again three months later...

 

[itchyhives]

You are of course right, about waiting to see if the pheromones kick in in a timely fashion, but I also have to balance letting Nature runs its course with the pub on the other side of the fence, duty of care thing.

That sounds like a long drinking session. Might tell that one to the wife, "yes love nature has to run its course so I'm just off to the pub to wait."