My new hive ...

[garlicpickle]

Looking very good there Philip, you must be chuffed to bits to finally have your bees

 

[pargyle]

Good luck your bees will benefit from building their own comb. (now that could start an argument)

Thanks Tom ... WILL start an argument is probably nearer the truth ... I think there's been quite a lot of cabin fever lately and it doesn't take a lot ! Foundationless started out as a journey to save costs ... but having seen the results I'm a firm convert.

JBM ... yes, the four saws I have are a great help but actually they weren't a fortune, they are all OLD .. the most useful one is my bandsaw which is about 30 years old and I picked it up on fleebay for £35 ! The Radial Arm Saw was £80 and my planer thicknesser was £50 (that was in a right old state but it's an Inca and built nearly 40 years ago like a brick Kazi ... just needed stripping, cleaning, a coat of paint and a LOT of fiddling to get it adjusted. The most expensive one was the table saw which by my standards is modern (only 15 years old !). My lathe is my favourite though ... 1962 vintage - a Myford ML8 - real British Engineering - built to withstand a nuclear attack and will probably last forever. Still does everything I want it to do.

I only got these machines a couple of years ago ... I, like you, managed with hand tools and the like ... the difference these few saws and the planer (or even just the bandsaw) make to your woodworking is in the speed, the cutting accuracy and the ability to repeat cuts (and angles) - it is so much easier and miles quicker. (Still get it wrong though ... not good with a tape measure - when I use it, that is !!)

 

[pargyle]

Looking very good there Philip, you must be chuffed to bits to finally have your bees

Finding it difficult to do anything but watch them ... think I will have to find a way of video linking them to my iphone !!

 

[BeeJayBee]

Foundationless started out as a journey to save costs ... but having seen the results I'm a firm convert.

I think I can see three horizontal wires, did you use eyelets and so on? Have you got a picture of one without comb on it?

 

[pargyle]

I think I can see three horizontal wires, did you use eyelets and so on? Have you got a picture of one without comb on it?

Yes, I wired them with three horizontal wires with brass eyelets. Picked up a reel of s/s wire, a pair of crimping pliers and some eyelets that were on fleebay from China. No problem with any of these ... the pliers are not the greatest quality but they do work once you master the art of getting the pressure on the two cogs just right. I found that it helps if you rest the side bar of the frame firmly on the bench with the top bar hanging over the edge then pull the pliers steadily but firmly up the wire. The wires crimped up nice and tight. (MInd you - the crimpers look identical to the ones on T***s website so perhaps that's the 'standard' quality!).

This was the crimper I bought but I won it on a 99p start auction for less than a fiver !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Beekeepin..._Pet_Supplies_Bee_Keeping&hash=item35b3a175c8

These were the eyelets from the same firm £2.54 and all the way from China !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-pcs-be...648?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0500e1b0

I got the wire from them as well and it is stainless steel not galvanised. All the items at present from them seem to be listed at Buy it Now prices but they were all being auctioned when I bought them - got the lot for under a tenner all in - absolute bargain. Still good prices at the BIN levels compared to some of the UK Suppliers - particularly as they are nearly all free postage.

You can also see on this photo the plastic runners for the frames - strips of plastic tile edging from the local discount homewares shop. £1.65 for a 2.3 mtr length. Enough to do the hive and my home made Nuc. I know my cheapskate ways will appeal to a number of home hive builders on here !!!

It's a better picture to show the window frame roof steady on the RHS ... also from the discount shop ... 99p !! Anodised aluminium.

 

[Tom Bick]

I personally don’t use eyelets I have tried them and they are belt and braces but to me another expense.

I have wired many frames by pulling the wire taught through the holes the wire pulls into the grain when in line with it but soon tighten up but does not across it and has worked well in the past.

Recently on the forum it was mentioned that staples are good to stop the wire cutting into the frame and having tried them they work brilliantly with the advantage I don’t have to pull the wire so tight.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Thanks for the information. Plenty to think about.

Tom - do you always wire your frames? Top bar hives don't have them, and some of them are quite deep.

 

[user 6228]

nice wood work...
I'm just doing the thermal experiments on a TBH....
are you interested in some comments onthe likely thermal properties of your design from some of the insight gained from measuring the one I have here?

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks for the information. Plenty to think about.

Tom - do you always wire your frames? Top bar hives don't have them, and some of them are quite deep.

Only have one TBH beejoyful to be honest I enjoy looking at it more than working it although it is pleasure to work. It is at the moment split into three with perhaps two new beekeepers gaining from the As and split just once I have laying queens.


I mostly run with nationals but after a few years experimenting started converting to just wired frames a couple of years ago and find it far more interesting.

 

[Mike a]

Any chance of posting a few pictures Tom?

 

[Tom Bick]

I supposed so Mike I will need to take some more as I always intend to but then I think sticky phone and this is not the place as its pargyle,s thread.

I have thought about starting a thread on foundationless frames as I have had a number of PM’s regarding them and I bet other’s with far more experience can contribute.

Its not exactly rocket science to me its very simple to question why foundation and who does it benefit?

 

[BeeJayBee]

I have thought about starting a thread on foundationless frames as I have had a number of PM’s regarding them and I bet other’s with far more experience can contribute.

I think it would be a good idea. I've started using them, almost - just a starter strip - it would be good to share experiences and learn more too.

 

[pargyle]

nice wood work...
I'm just doing the thermal experiments on a TBH....
are you interested in some comments onthe likely thermal properties of your design from some of the insight gained from measuring the one I have here?

Hi Derek, yes ... A lot of your posts led me in the direction of more insulation than I originally intended (that was the THIRD rebuild I think !). Anycomments would be valued ...

Mike A is, I hope, going to do some thermal images of the hive for me when the colder weather arrives that should tell me if there are any serious leaks.

I've now got the temp and humidity meter I was talking about earlier from ebay and I'm going to install the sensors next week and start recording. It will just be three figures, Internal hive temp, internal hive humidity and external temp but it's a start.

Phil

 

[pargyle]

I supposed so Mike I will need to take some more as I always intend to but then I think sticky phone and this is not the place as its pargyle,s thread.

I have thought about starting a thread on foundationless frames as I have had a number of PM’s regarding them and I bet other’s with far more experience can contribute.

Its not exactly rocket science to me its very simple to question why foundation and who does it benefit?

I'm happy to share my thread but a specific thread on foundationless frames may find a wider (and receptive) audience. As I said - it was the cost of foundation that drove my thinking initially. I had, originally, intended to go the top bar only route but chickened out when I figured that, with my ham fists, the odds were on that I would break more combs than not if I had to handle them. So, I decided on frames and then in discussion with another FDBKA beek I discovered that he made his own foundation and wired it horizontally ... so, plans changed again and I ended up where I am now. Best of all worlds as far as I can see ... the bees seem to build just as fast and within the frames ? Are there any disadvantages to foundationless - few more drone cells perhaps in due course ? I've read the words on cell size regression - I don't know whether it's right or not, jury's still out - but at least the bees are building exactly what THEY want to build, so that can't be a bad thing.

 

[Alabamaeee]

As a newish user of 14X12 with standard wired foundation I find they tend to sag unless turned in the textbook way that you get taught at training sessions.

Just wondering how you will find yours to turn? Hopefully easier with the horizontal wiring which I think will give better support than the normal V shaped foundation wires.

I am using a drone trap frame and was amazed to find one colony had completed drawn the 14X12 empty frame in a little over a week

I hope you have many hours of pleasure working your wonderful hive.

 

[Robbie & Jans Bees]

I can say this is one of the most intresting posts I have read for a long time I have made a top bar hive over the wintre and just waiting for a swarm or one of our nuc to mature.

 

[pargyle]

As a newish user of 14X12 with standard wired foundation I find they tend to sag unless turned in the textbook way that you get taught at training sessions.

Just wondering how you will find yours to turn? Hopefully easier with the horizontal wiring which I think will give better support than the normal V shaped foundation wires.

I am using a drone trap frame and was amazed to find one colony had completed drawn the 14X12 empty frame in a little over a week

I hope you have many hours of pleasure working your wonderful hive.

Well ... it's early days, bear in mind that the the foundationless frames only have drawn comb and bees on them so not the full weight they will have if they ever get filled with honey ... but, they feel very stable even though it's new comb and still a bit flexible, I tend to handle the frames in the traditional way so I don't put them under pressure but there was no obvious sign of sagging even when I was leaning them over a bit to tak the photos. I understand that some beeks double up the diagonal wires provided on standard foundation with horizontal wires to reduce the possibility of sagging.

 

[pargyle]

I can say this is one of the most intresting posts I have read for a long time I have made a top bar hive over the wintre and just waiting for a swarm or one of our nuc to mature.

Thanks ... and yes, lots of good stuff came out of it ... would love to see some photos of your TBH.

 

[Tom Bick]

As a newish user of 14X12 with standard wired foundation I find they tend to sag unless turned in the textbook way that you get taught at training sessions.

Just wondering how you will find yours to turn? Hopefully easier with the horizontal wiring which I think will give better support than the normal V shaped foundation wires.

I am using a drone trap frame and was amazed to find one colony had completed drawn the 14X12 empty frame in a little over a week

I hope you have many hours of pleasure working your wonderful hive.

Its been mentioned before that the comb on 14x12 frames can be a bit wobbly especially if the frame is not fully drawn out. It is down to the fact the wires although within the foundation are only hanging vertically with no fixing at the bottom and require the comb to be attached to the side and bottom bars to give them stability.

On wired frames the wires are fixed and pulled reasonably taut and providing the bees incorporate the wire within the comb the comb is supported at that point. Where problems with comb breaking may occur is if the bees work around the wire as they do sometimes, one side is perfect comb and supported by the wire if it rests against it but the other side the comb is worked around the wire and can fall away if not noticed.

I have found that once the comb becomes older it can resemble something closer to plywood than wax comb and even the combs on TBH’s can be handled with less worry of breaking.

 

[Gyp]

Great hive building skills I'm well impressed.

What size wire did you use for the frames, I bought some that I thought would do from the garden centre the other day but its to thick.