Moving grafted queen cells.

[Tom Bick]

I have a question for more experienced beekeepers regarding the moving of grafted queen cells and when it’s safe to move them to the mating station.
I am currently starting my mating nucs and on Wednesday I will give each a queen cell. The queens are expected to emerge Friday Saturday. I don’t want to keep all the mating nucs in one place so would like to move some of them.

So my question, is it safe to move the queen cells on Wednesday and if so what is the best way to do this, place the cell in the mating nuc and then move or transport the cells and then introduce to the nucs. I can cut some holes in some foam to support the cells if moving the cells is preferred.

If Wednesday is considered too early I could leave it until Thursday, but would cause a restless night worrying if I have my timing wrong.

 

[jp19sqn]

Hi Tom, do you use roller cages at all? In our experience the queens in cells are ok to move from your wednesday deadline but obviously with as little jostling as possible. They are remarkably resilient. A tray of 20 cells fell off the tailgate of our truck once at 13 days and they all hatched well enough. We put roller cages on and then we have no worries about early hatching, you can run a virgin into an apidea with little risk. We also ran an experiment marking virgins and did not notice much increase in losses. The time saved in not playing hunt the virgin in apideas paid for the few percent losses. But we graft 2 batches of 50 a week

 

[fatshark]

I've regularly added the cell to the nuc in my garage then moved the box to the mating site. Works just fine using the timing you suggest. The roller cages give considerable peace of mind … I now routinely cage mine soonish after they're sealed. It also saves having to cut them away from all the brace comb they build if there's any sort of flow.

 

[Teemore]

I have a batch of QCs on the same timing as you Tom. I'll be moving them to mating nucs on Wednesday evening for members of the queen rearing group I am running. In my case, the mating nucs will remain on site. it may be worthwhile adding some sort of cell protector around the QCs. I always seem to get the odd cell dismantled/rejected by the bees. The replacement cell a few days later is invariably accepted..... the rejected cell may have been defective in the first instance though.

I have transported QCs 70+ miles in a pouch made from bubble wrap which I kept inside my shirt on the drive home - all Qs emerged! These were around the 14 day mark. The main thing is not to jostle them too much. If you are using apideas, the design holds the grafted cell very securely. I have to be a lot more careful with my kielers.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks for the replies they have been a big help. I don't have cages as I am using the small plastic cups that don't come with cages. I know you can make cages that you can fit the cells into to give you a bit of breathing space and security so will probably make some for next year. I think I will transport the nuc's to the cell building site and then move the mating nucs. Thanks.

 

[Teemore]

Traditional "Hair curlers" serve as fairly good cell protectors and queen release cages. A trip to your local chemists should give you a good supply of these - you'll need to use tinfoil or a cork to seal the bottom up though and some of them are a wee bit too small to protect larger queen cells.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks Teemore that's interesting . I have decided to experiment with moving the cells to the mating nucs as well as moving the mating nucs to the cells and then back to the mating station. I have a block of foam and will make some hollows to cradle the cells and hope this will work ok. One worry I have is I have realised that three of my mating nucs I have made requires me to remove the clear crown board to fit the queen cell and I am worried that the bees will all take to the air and disappear over the wall. This worry has made me think perhaps move the cell to the nuc so if any bees do fly they may find their way back to the nuc? My other four homemade nucs are ok and should be able to position the cell without to much disturbance to the bees. The two apideas I have are great but the hole is to big for the plastic cups I have and will have to fashion a small piece of plastic into a washer.

It's all a learning curve and one thing I have learnt today is I need to alter my mating nucs so I can fill them from the bottom similar to the apideas as filling from the top and then replacing small frames,crown board took to long and I lost some bees in the process.

 

[Teemore]

Once I have the remainder of my small mating nucs in use, my intention is to dummy down my 5 and 6 F Nucs to 3 frames and use those to get Qs mated. At this stage of the season they will have plenty of time to build up and I can boost them if required. Also, some of those (hopefully) mated Qs will be used to re-queen production stocks and the frames will be united onto other Nucs etc.
Are you able to modify the clear crown boards and make an introduction hole in them at this stage? You can close over the hole with a simple flap a la apidea style.
I find that if you have a water mister to hand if you have to completely open a mating nuc when inserting a cell or Q cage, a spray of water keeps most of the bees "in-house".
I have also considered using half sized supers as Q mating colonies (floor and roof added of course) but this would necessitate a change in the way I manage colonies in order to populate the half supers. Hivemaker's mini nucs and the way he stocks them prompted me to think about this as a Q rearing/mating option.

 

[Tom Bick]

I made four mating nucs two years ago loosely based on Hivemakers design, one of the differences I made was to make the hive box one quarter the size of a super or brood so all four can be placed over a hive once the floors removed. With a floor removed I can stack one box over the other and create the same space as a five frame nuc and perhaps overwinter. These nucs have a hole in the clear crown board so I should be able to insert the queen cell without to much difficulty. It's the three I made in a rush on Saturday and based on a top bar type that don't have the hole, I will actually have to remove a bar and fit the cell cup into a small hole similar to how they are in the cell building frame. I have a few spare bars so I can fit the cell into one of them and then swap over. I will just have to go with what I have and make adjustments for next year.

 

[alanf]

I have decided to experiment with moving the cells to the mating nucs as well as moving the mating nucs to the cells and then back to the mating station.

Not claiming a lot of expertise, and my improvised kit may not be finished to your standards but I too enjoy experimenting. I can only say what has worked for me so far. Where possible, I've tried to put the QC in the prepared mating nuc and then transported the nuc to wherever it's going. Basic reasoning is that the bees can regulate the environment around the cell better than I can.

I have a block of foam and will make some hollows to cradle the cells and hope this will work ok.

A feature of some commercially produced incubators seems to be humidity as much as temperature. When I have had to transport a couple of cells, I made a circle of foam with two holes to take the queen cells. It fits inside an insulated cup. Swill warm water around inside and put a warm wet folded kitchen towel at the base. Pop in the foam circle, add the cells and they have some insulation and humidity for transport.

One worry I have is I have realised that three of my mating nucs I have made requires me to remove the clear crown board to fit the queen cell

I have been using the cheaper (Swienty?) poly mating nucs that unlike the Apidea don't come with a clear cover. I use a piece of thick polythene, cut from the sort of bags 25 kg of sand come in from DIY sheds. In a day or two there's enough propolis to stick it down to the box. Before putting it on the box, you can easily cut three sides of a small flap to line up over the gap between frames. Lift the flap to place the cell holder between frames. If I'm worried about it falling on a longer journey, a twist of garden wire around the holder top rim allows it to rest on the top of the frames. A few days later the flap is handy to check the queen is out of the QC and it can be peeled back from the end to check or top up the fondant.

It's all a learning curve and one thing I have learnt today is I need to alter my mating nucs so I can fill them from the bottom similar to the apideas as filling from the top and then replacing small frames,crown board took to long and I lost some bees in the process.

They stay where they are put a bit longer with a light mist from a plant spray bottle, the bottom trap door is handy and can provide some through ventilation. Learning never stops; new uses for garden wire, cable ties and gaffer tape every week.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks Alan that's a big help. The humidity for transporting the cells is noted and a bit of moisture in the form of a damp warm towel should be no problem also a few drops of water on the block of foam and then kept in the van should hopefully work ok. Thankfully I don't have far to travel and plan to time it around 4pm just after the school rush and before the main madness starts but could hit a bit of traffic. I used a light spray on the bees and it works great but filling the apideas was so much easier than my hives and you just want the whole operation to be slick and as efficient as possible.

Elastic bands you can never have enough and why the postmen have stopped dropping them bugs me

 

[Tom Bick]

Well don't know what to think after today and transferring the queen cells into the mating nucs. I say queen cell but not sure if they are more like small pieces of comb. I went expecting to see with my fingers crossed six to nine almost perfect queen cells but no I was confronted with was four small lumps of comb with the faint outline of a queen cell within the comb. I played around with one cell ever so carefully removing the wax and exposed what looked like the tip of a queen cell so decided I had better carry on and just introduce three of what I had into three mating nucs and the forth placed back into the cell building hive along with a test frame. If they have failed so be it and if I get a queen happy days. Sunday will reveal all . The bit I don't understand is a one thing went wrong from last Friday when I checked on progress and I had at least six great looking queen cells . I have plenty of time to try again if it's a total fail.

 

[fatshark]

Is what you describe the original QC's now surrounded with brace comb? If so, it'll be very soft and you can easily separate them and put them into the nucs - as it sounds like you've done. You generally don't have to cut too much of the comb away, just enough to slide it between the frames.

This almost always happens if there's a good flow on or you're feeding syrup. I've just checked mine to find the original 8 are now 4 and two big new circles of drone brace comb. Caging them will prevent this … or taking the sealed cells and putting them into an incubator.

 

[hedgehog66]

Hi fatshark

What temp and humidity do you set the incubator to ?
I have a digital one used for hatching chickens etc which i might get out and have a go.

Do you put each QC in a cage with attendants then pray or leave out attendants

Any help gratefully received

 

[Tom Bick]

Is what you describe the original QC's now surrounded with brace comb? If so, it'll be very soft and you can easily separate them and put them into the nucs - as it sounds like you've done. You generally don't have to cut too much of the comb away, just enough to slide it between the frames.

This almost always happens if there's a good flow on or you're feeding syrup. I've just checked mine to find the original 8 are now 4 and two big new circles of drone brace comb. Caging them will prevent this … or taking the sealed cells and putting them into an incubator.

Thanks fatshark that very reassuring. On another thread I had mentioned that this comb building around one cell had started last Friday and I was told then it would be OK and just put it in the mating nuc but your post has just confirmed this and reassured me that I am still in the game.

One thing that made me think all was perhaps not lost was that the cells were only covered in the comb and I know if the bees wanted to they could fill the frame and fill it with stores or brood in a week. I am thinking the bees will chew some of this wax away to help release the queens.

There is a nectar flow on at the moment as I was concerned, I checked the brood box of the cell raiser and then went through another hive for a test frame and both hives have almost filled the top broods in nectar/honey and moving down into the bottom box. So had better get busy with the supers.

Cheers

 

[masterBK]

If you enclose the Q cells in hair roller cages as soon as the cells are sealed this prevents the bees joining all the cells up wuith brace comb