Moving from standard National deep to 14x12

[Curly green finger's]

Every one to their own, I like 14 x 12 .. the brood box is big enough for the parts of the season when they are building up or winding down .. during the season there are supers to create the extra space .. I don't use queen excluders and they will, occasionally, put some brood in the middle part of the first super but no big deal, when it has emerged they use the cells for honey. 14 x 12 full of stores is a great overwintering box .. not much to hate really. If there is one downside it is the weight of the brood frames when full of stores ... but who lifts out brood frames full of stores ? I certainly don't !

Same here, I thought I wouldnt get on with 14x12 but I really do like them.
Just to mention that they help also in my swarm prevention.

 

[North End Bees]

I agree
It’s lazy beekeeping when a little care and a bit of work achieves the same result.

Laziness doesn't come into it; the work amounts to more or less the same; slightly less work than a Bailey but the time/effort involved wouldn't be the deciding factor. You could say that just swapping out an outside frame is lazy.

It's not just the pathogens in the wax; also consider brood pathogens (plus varroa).

Moving frames to the edge doesn't achieve the same result.

 

[Apple]

Well there you go... some beekeepers like 14 x 12 frames some ( like me) think they are an abomination.
My preference is to go brood and 1/2 as then it is possible to work the bees for honey.
On shook swarms, I found that despite the horrendous waste of brood.. that when dealing with EFB which has been spread by swarms and the sale of such in our area this last season... the bees very quickly make new brood and get going again very quickly.
I also shook swarm'd some colonies that were full of the Danish Pastry Virus, and managed to totally eradicate it from one apiary, and will be adopting that methodology next season. Dr Bailey was on the nail on his virus prevention ideas.

SO we shall have to agree to differ...

14 x 12 frames are the best thing since sliced bread....
14 x 12 frames are an abomination that are adopted by lazy beekeepers

Shook swarms are the best thing since sliced bread....
Shook swarms are an abomination that are adopted by lazy beekeepers

As for the BBKA... now that is a Curate's egg indeed!!

Sunday sermon over

Mytten da

 

[Apple]

Same here, I thought I wouldnt get on with 14x12 but I really do like them.
Just to mention that they help also in my swarm prevention.

How?

 

[Ian123]

I saw a video from the spring convention with I think an American speaker, a lady asked a question involving a shook swarm the bloke was a little confused

 

[Curly green finger's]

How?

Extra laying space when the colony are expanding..
In comparison to a standard national they give you more time.
Which in turn means less manipulations.

I agree that brood/half or brood and two half's does produce more honey early on but then my 14x12 colonys take over and this season I was putting two supers on colonys at a time.

 

[Ian123]

Laziness doesn't come into it; the work amounts to more or less the same; slightly less work than a Bailey but the time/effort involved wouldn't be the deciding factor. You could say that just swapping out an outside frame is lazy.
It's not just the pathogens in the wax; also consider brood pathogens (plus varroa).

Moving frames to the edge doesn't achieve the same result.

It’s not the beeks time and effort but rather a whole generation of bees. As for pathogens in the wax well that’s exactly where they stay and you remove the old box at some point! Varroa really shouldn’t be an issue at that time of year. Your autumn and in particular winter treatment should have given you a clean as possible start for the season in the vast majority of cases.

 

[North End Bees]

It’s not the beeks time and effort but rather a whole generation of bees. As for pathogens in the wax well that’s exactly where they stay and you remove the old box at some point! Varroa really shouldn’t be an issue at that time of year. Your autumn and in particular winter treatment should have given you a clean as possible start for the season in the vast majority of cases.

A 'whole generation' of bees is a slightly dramatic way of expressing the brood loss. Which in fact is made up for by the colony in an extremely short time. You wouldn't be planning to do a shook swarm at a time when the pollen wasn't abundant and brood-rearing in full swing.

Re the old frames being replaced at some point, that's sometimes debatable. I've seen plenty of old black combs in people's hives which should have been consigned to room 101 a long time since. I expect they eventually get round to it.

Re varroa not being an issue, that's not exactly true either. After a December treatment of OA there will be a gradual build up of mites by April. They don't suddenly materialise from nowhere in August!

 

[Ian123]

A 'whole generation' of bees is a slightly dramatic way of expressing the brood loss. Which in fact is made up for by the colony in an extremely short time. You wouldn't be planning to do a shook swarm at a time when the pollen wasn't abundant and brood-rearing in full swing.

Re the old frames being replaced at some point, that's sometimes debatable. I've seen plenty of old black combs in people's hives which should have been consigned to room 101 a long time since. I expect they eventually get round to it.

Re varroa not being an issue, that's not exactly true either. After a December treatment of OA there will be a gradual build up of mites by April. They don't suddenly materialise from nowhere in August!

Sorry I should have said cycle is that less dramatic, it is however factual and a complete waste for the bees. As to old combs not removed well that’s down to the beek a shook swarm won’t turn them into a super beekeepers! Yes we all know that varroa numbers develop over time but given a winter treatment numbers very rarely reach critical levels before autumn comes around, and for the record I’ve been winter hive bleaching/cleaning since early 2000s. So apart from needlessly wasting a cycle of bees, but it’s ok because they recover quickly. What are you achieving that can’t be done otherwise?

 

[Erichalfbee]

What are you achieving that can’t be done otherwise?

Speed is the only thing I can think of

 

[Ian123]

Even that’s touch and go I can stick a box on top of a hive quicker than I can shake a dozen frames off and slide an excluder between on the next inspection. By the sound of it my friend still does a winter treatment that takes seconds. Is there a need to get them off the frames any quicker?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Even that’s touch and go I can stick a box on top of a hive quicker than I can shake a dozen frames off and slide an excluder between on the next inspection. By the sound of it my friend still does a winter treatment that takes seconds. Is there a need to get the off the frames any quicker?

Yes. I meant speed in getting all the bees into new frames.

 

[North End Bees]

Yes. I meant speed in getting all the bees into new frames.

Why do people keep mentioning speed?!

At no point did I say that speed was a reason for doing it. Clean combs, free of pathogens/pests at a time when the colony is naturally expanding is surely a desirable outcome for anybody?

 

[Ian123]

Why do people keep mentioning speed?!

At no point did I say that speed was a reason for doing it. Clean combs, free of pathogens/pests at a time when the colony is naturally expanding is surely a desirable outcome for anybody?

Exactly so just stick a new box on top and let the bees get on with it job done.

 

[North End Bees]

Exactly so just stick a new box on top and let the bees get on with it job done.

No problem, do whatever works for you.

Or do via a demarree if that works as part of a planned management as mentioned earlier by the OP.

What's not really helpful is people being prescriptive about what people can't do.

 

[Ian123]

Not sure I said can’t! I think it’s just been suggested there’s better ways of achieving the same effect without the needles waste or destruction of a cycle of brood. That again is rather pointless if the perceived benefits can be achieved in other ways.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Clean combs, free of pathogens/pests at a time when the colony is naturally expanding is surely a desirable outcome for anybody?

Just the usual hogwash rolled out my the BBKA and other non thinkers obsessed with this barbaric method.
They've convinced themselves that it 'boosts' the colony's activity which, to be honest is utter tosh. The poor buggers have no choice but to work harder as some clown has shaken them off al the brood and dumped them in a bare box with nothing but foundation.
Cbee farmers look contemptuously at the practice, even it's use to deal with EFB is now coming under question.
As for the rest of the world...........................................

 

[North End Bees]

Not sure I said can’t!

No, it wasn't your posts I was referring to.

 

[Markthebuilder]

I converted early to 14 x 12 , which in some ways was a mistake for a beginner as it complected any hive manipulation. on the Pluss side I found that the bees used the space below any standard frames to to build Drone cells, which I judiciously removed to help with mite control.
That too may have been a Mistake as I think the queen believing drones were required simply continue to lay drones at the expense of workers and the workers were forced to build more drone comb

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why do people keep mentioning speed?!

At no point did I say that speed was a reason for doing it.

I mentioned it because to me it seems the only reason somebody might want to do it when there are better ways

No problem, do whatever works for you.

Not quite, surely?
Shouldn’t we be doing what works for the bees as well?