Moving from standard National deep to 14x12

[GuyNir]

Thinking of trying couple hives next year as 14x12 single brood box colonies. Currently running single standard deep configuration.
What’s the best way to move them over to 14x12? Demaree them into the 14x12 box? Put the deep frames into a 14x12 box and have them draw those further down?
Have no 14x12 drawn frames at this point.
Thanks.

 

[MerryBee]

A simple way is the Bailey Comb Change.
There is a straightforward explanation of how to do it in the NBU fact sheet "Replacing Old Brood comb" available from here
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=167

 

[Angry_Mob]

Easiest way is to work them in over time. Next year transfer the colony to the new 14x12 box and replace the national frames outside the brood nest with new 14x12's ones. A sugar syrup feed would be beneficial to encourage them to draw the new frames

At each subsequent inspection take a frame from one end of the hive and put it on the other side, when you get to the national frames (which at this stage should hopefully be brood less) replace with the 14x12.
Eventually you will have "conveyered" the national frames out.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Easiest way is to work them in over time. Next year transfer the colony to the new 14x12 box and replace the national frames outside the brood nest with new 14x12's ones. A sugar syrup feed would be beneficial to encourage them to draw the new frames

At each subsequent inspection take a frame from one end of the hive and put it on the other side, when you get to the national frames (which at this stage should hopefully be brood less) replace with the 14x12.
Eventually you will have "conveyered" the national frames out.

either that or a bailey change

 

[Newbeeneil]

I had to do this earlier this year as one of my clients needed a nuc and I didn't have any available on 14x12's so I made up some extension pieces I could easily staple to the ends of a National frame whilst on site. I made the extension legs from scratch but these could be any legs cut to size. The junction plate is made from 0.5 Ali but any thin material would do. I think, IIRC, that Thornes supply something similar

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

many I know don't bother with extending the frames - the bees will just extend the comb below the bottom bar, the comb/frame is still perfectly manageable and 'will do' until they are swapped out

 

[Apple]

How strange I have been doing exactly the opposite.. abomination of 14 x 142 frames to standard National brood.. or in some cases OSB frames.

Shook swarm early in the season onto nice new foundation plus a good feed seems to work very well, and the 14 x 12 frames can have the wax melted out and the frames cut down to fit the Nicot cups so not totally wasted!
Chons da

 

[Curly green finger's]

This season I got short of frames of stores.. So I used super frames mixed in with standard national 6 frame nucs, scored the frames of stores, by the time I removed the super frames they hadn't built much of the bottom of the frames.

I agree no need to worry about changing frames just work them out to the outside.

 

[North End Bees]

Shook swarm early in the season onto nice new foundation plus a good feed seems to work very well, and the 14 x 12 frames can have the wax melted out and the frames cut down to fit the Nicot cups so not totally wasted!
Chons da

Shook swarm is the best option. New frame size plus start the season without any of the pathogens lurking in the old wax. The new frames will get laid up really quickly.

Two birds, one stone.

 

[GuyNir]

How strange I have been doing exactly the opposite.. abomination of 14 x 142 frames to standard National brood..

What’s the reason you downsized frames? I find the standard deep too small and hard to control during quick expansion and on a single brood.
planning on trying demareeing also next season, so thought maybe the two could be combined?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Shook swarm is the best option. New frame size plus start the season without any of the pathogens lurking in the old wax. The new frames will get laid up really quickly.

Two birds, one stone.

What a terrible waste of brood that with a little patience you can avoid.
if your colony is healthy there are few pathogens lurking inside the wax. -

 

[GuyNir]

Shook swarm is the best option. New frame size plus start the season without any of the pathogens lurking in the old wax. The new frames will get laid up really quickly.

Two birds, one stone.

I did several shook swarms last year due to EFB. I was also amazed at how quickly they build back up (+ the Q absolutely love new comb). I just think it’s really disruptive to the colony so thought of asking for other ‘gentler’ options.

 

[pargyle]

Shook swarm is the best option. New frame size plus start the season without any of the pathogens lurking in the old wax. The new frames will get laid up really quickly.

Two birds, one stone.

No it isn't ...sorry but shook swarms are a very destructive and wasteful process - it stresses the bees immensely and should be a process banned from beekeeping except for the few 'problems' where you really do need a clean break and clean frames.

Just move the national frames into a 14 x 12 box, they will build free comb on the bottom of the frames - I have some national frames with free comb on the bottom that are still in use 3 or 4 years on. The bees don't mind, the free comb is stable - no big deal. You can gradually move the frames out if you are fussy. Just replace the frames at the edge of the brood nest (those without brood and not that much in the way of stores) one at a time and give them time to draw them out. Don't take frames of stores out at the ends of the hive unless there is sufficient forage to keep them going.

 

[North End Bees]

No it isn't ...sorry but shook swarms are a very destructive and wasteful process - it stresses the bees immensely and should be a process banned from beekeeping except for the few 'problems' where you really do need a clean break and clean frames.

I have found that colonies which I've shook swarmed have built up quickly and overtaken neighbouring hives in terms of frames of brood.

I agree that any intervention is stressful to an extent (including moving frames around the brood nest) but the rapid build-up would suggest that bees manage it very well.

 

[Ian123]

Don’t bother with the shook swarm just add your box on top, if done early a little feed to compensate for inclement weather and the bees will do the rest. Personally hate 14x12 it’s in effect brood and half and is still not large enough for prolific queens and far less versatile in terms of how you use or manipulate boxes.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Shook swarm is the best option.

Shook swarm is never the answer unless the question was 'I have EFB' but even then it's doubtful.

 

[North End Bees]

Shook swarm is never the answer unless the question was 'I have EFB' but even then it's doubtful.

We can agree to differ on that one then

 

[Erichalfbee]

No it isn't ...sorry but shook swarms are a very destructive and wasteful process - it stresses the bees immensely and should be a process banned from beekeeping except for the few 'problems' where you really do need a clean break and clean frames.

I agree
It’s lazy beekeeping when a little care and a bit of work achieves the same result.
As for the bees managing it, they are built to survive so of course they do but we are not making machines.
It’s something the BBKA are very fond of.

 

[pargyle]

Don’t bother with the shook swarm just add your box on top, if done early a little feed to compensate for inclement weather and the bees will do the rest. Personally hate 14x12 it’s in effect brood and half and is still not large enough for prolific queens and far less versatile in terms of how you use or manipulate boxes.

Every one to their own, I like 14 x 12 .. the brood box is big enough for the parts of the season when they are building up or winding down .. during the season there are supers to create the extra space .. I don't use queen excluders and they will, occasionally, put some brood in the middle part of the first super but no big deal, when it has emerged they use the cells for honey. 14 x 12 full of stores is a great overwintering box .. not much to hate really. If there is one downside it is the weight of the brood frames when full of stores ... but who lifts out brood frames full of stores ? I certainly don't !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It’s something the BBKA are very fond of.

Which is ample justification for not touching it with a bargepole