Moving frame positions within a brood box

[snecklifter]

Hello,

I have searched all 5 books I have for the answer to no avail. I currently have an over-wintering nuc in a brood box, 6 frames with very little either side. I would like to encourage my bees to draw out foundation into the new frames (the ones I got with the nuc are pretty scabby) by moving one or two into the centre come March/April.

My question is:

Good idea/bad idea?
Good timing/bad timing?
Best way to go about this?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

 

[REDWOOD]

Wait until you have a full colony of bees and then start moving the frames outwards and eventually out of the hive. Bees will build comb as soon as it's needed providing they have stores or a flow on

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hello,

I have searched all 5 books I have for the answer to no avail. I currently have an over-wintering nuc in a brood box, 6 frames with very little either side. I would like to encourage my bees to draw out foundation into the new frames (the ones I got with the nuc are pretty scabby) by moving one or two into the centre come March/April.

My question is:

Good idea/bad idea?
Good timing/bad timing?
Best way to go about this?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

I was told when I moved the bees from the nuc I bought I should position the nuc frames in the centre and provide an empty foundation at either side with a dummy board outside of that to avoid overfacing the bees with comb drawing work. Then when the new foundation was drawn to add one more foundation at a time, moving outwards progressively until the box was full. The bees drew out the 14 x 12 foundations as expected and pretty soon filled the box. It helped that there was a plentiful supply of nectar of course as it gave both incentive and materials.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I was told when I moved the bees from the nuc I bought I should position the nuc frames in the centre and provide an empty foundation at either side with a dummy board outside of that to avoid overfacing the bees with comb drawing work.

If you place them against the side wall, adding foundation to the middle they will put all there energy on working in one direction instead of trying to work on two fronts, a good nuc will usually draw out all the foundation frames in a week.

 

[Cazza]

I would follow Hivemakers sage advice.
You need a full hive before you start putting empty frames in the middle. place them at the side and they will draw frames as needed. No need to try to "encourage" them.
Cazza

 

[ugcheleuce]

I would like to encourage my bees to draw out foundation into the new frames ... by moving one or two into the centre come March/April.

I'm no expert, but from what I've read, the verdict would be: not good.

There are beekeeping methods that involve adding empty frames or foundation into the middle of the brood nest to encourage it to expand, but those procedures are done on strong, healthy, growing colonies. In other words, they promote additional growth after the growth spurt has begun.

If your colony is still small, and/or is not going through a growth spurt, then putting an empty frame or foundation in the middle of the nest will do nothing but make it harder for them to keep their temperature steady. Their priority will not magically become "comb building" just because there is a sudden gap in the centre of their nest.

If you want to expand a small colony such as yours, put the nest in the centre of the box (or against the side of the box, say some people), and add empty frames or foundation next to it.

Since your colony is in a nuc box (presumably), you don't need to add a follower board to make the nest cavity smaller, but if these bees were in a larger box, you'd find yourself advised to make the cavity more cozy by adding a snug fitting follower board, and only add one or two new frames at a time and wait until they are beginning to fill up before adding new ones.

If you place them against the side wall, adding foundation to the middle they will put all there energy on working in one direction instead of trying to work on two fronts, a good nuc will usually draw out all the foundation frames in a week.

I wonder if that isn't just appearance. I mean, if they draw out foundation at an equal pace regardless of whether they're working in one direction or two directions, then it would appear (to you, the outside observer) that they're working faster if they are able to go only in one direction, but they wouldn't actually be working any faster or better on the whole. Right?

What would you say to the argument that working in two directions would reduce them stepping on each others toes (so to speak) in their frenzy to build new comb?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Done both, and found they always build much faster from the sidewall, food frame in first.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Done both, and found they always build much faster from the sidewall, food frame in first.

Is the reason you put the food frame in first position that if you put it in last position, the food frame might act as a barrier to expansion of the brood nest?

 

[snecklifter]

Thanks, appreciate this. Will leave as-is for now.

They are in a brood box with three empty frames each side.

 

[itma]

.. I currently have an over-wintering nuc in a brood box, 6 frames with very little either side. I would like to encourage my bees to draw out foundation into the new frames ...

... Will leave as-is for now.

They are in a brood box with three empty frames each side.

This is not giving them the best chance of surviving the winter.

I'd suggest a trip to Wickes for a couple of 1200x400x50 sheets of Celotex (about £6 each). Then cut (breadknife) some (3?) packing slices to fit in place of (4?) of those empty frames. And cut a slice to fit above the crownboard.
A small colony needs all the warmth possible to simply survive, never mind draw new wax.

When you get a good enough day to improve their accommodation, take the opportunity to check their stores. A small colony (even in a warm hive) burns more stores per bee than a large colony. In a draughty one, they'll use even more. Check and be prepared to give them fondant!


You really do need to build the number of bees before you think of voluntarily trying to replace comb. And preserving the bees you have is the first step towards that.

 

[snecklifter]

Thanks for replies all. I did a very brief inspection today in around 9 degrees. Turns out it's purely academic as after fondant application on 3rd Jan, bees have drawn out comb on all frames except each outer one! Stores for the most part so they are looking good for the start of the year. View attachment 9567

 

[beeno]

Hi Snecklifter, On the face of it they look very good. Can't wait to have a look at my nuc, but better wait for warmer weather as they are not expected to be as strong as yours. Good luck for the season.

 

[drstitson]

looking good sized colony from that photo. you've been lucky. when did you transfer to brood box?

normal good practice would be to rehome nucs into brood boxes with only 1-2 frames of foundation; dummying down and adding insulation. then add frames as needed until box full.

generally better to keep a late season nuc as a nut to overwinter.

 

[itma]

Yes looks like a good lot of bees.
That said, the "insulating quilts" should be binned in favour of a layer of 50mm (or thicker) insulation board (Celotex, Kingspan, Xtratherm, etc). Very fine grained foam between skins of aluminium foil.

 

[Arfermo]

If you place them against the side wall, adding foundation to the middle they will put all there energy on working in one direction instead of trying to work on two fronts, a good nuc will usually draw out all the foundation frames in a week.

This is precisely what Roger Patterson (he of BIBBA etc, etc) does. Good enough for him should be good enough for anybody.

 

[Itchy]

Yes looks like a good lot of bees.
That said, the "insulating quilts" should be binned in favour of a layer of 50mm (or thicker) insulation board (Celotex, Kingspan, Xtratherm, etc). Very fine grained foam between skins of aluminium foil.

Those quilt things allow a lot of air through. I have some and to try and combat this problem, I tucked bubble wrap over the top. I'll be better organised next year

 

[Madge]

If you place them against the side wall, adding foundation to the middle they will put all there energy on working in one direction instead of trying to work on two fronts, a good nuc will usually draw out all the foundation frames in a week.

I don't quite understand what you're saying, Hivemaker. You're moving the frames to one side so that they expand to one direction - but then it sounds that you're also saying that you add a frame of foundation into the middle of the brood nest. Is that right?

 

[Madge]

Those quilt things allow a lot of air through. ...

They look like foam or sponge quilts. I've tried them but got rid of them quickly because they got soggy which I think will work more like a fridge than help the bees to keep warm.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I don't quite understand what you're saying, Hivemaker. You're moving the frames to one side so that they expand to one direction - but then it sounds that you're also saying that you add a frame of foundation into the middle of the brood nest. Is that right?

Sorry for any confusion, but no, foundation in the middle of the box.

 

[Tom Bick]

Thanks for replies all. I did a very brief inspection today in around 9 degrees. Turns out it's purely academic as after fondant application on 3rd Jan, bees have drawn out comb on all frames except each outer one! Stores for the most part so they are looking good for the start of the year. View attachment 9567

You may only have one hive but from that photo it looks like a good one and if they continue then in the early spring be ready to keep up with them