Making NUCs

[mocko]

Hi All,

I have a colony that is currently doing very well - it's a national on double brood but there are 8 frames covered in both the top box and the bottom, I'm worried about swarming so would like to make up some nuclei.

Question is, when spiliting the original colony to make a nucleus, is it acceptable for the nucleus to make its own queen through emergency queen cells? Is this common practice or do most buy a new queen?

Thanks

Andy

 

[Jaxx]

Hi Andy,
I'm pretty new to this game, but I think the answers in the question, it would be an emergency queen cell, although I'm sure it happens, I would split it another way if possible.

Maybe still a little early for splitting, we've not really had a run of warm weather yet and I haven't seen any drones around yet.

 

[Lincsbee]

i apologise for hijacking your thread, but mine are being removed at the moment. censorship without reason is shameful.

 

[clv101]

I'm also interested in splitting and wondering the best way to make/buy a new queen?

 

[Cazza]

Hi All,

I have a colony that is currently doing very well - it's a national on double brood but there are 8 frames covered in both the top box and the bottom, I'm worried about swarming so would like to make up some nuclei.

Question is, when spiliting the original colony to make a nucleus, is it acceptable for the nucleus to make its own queen through emergency queen cells? Is this common practice or do most buy a new queen?

Thanks

Andy

I just attended a whole day delivered by Roger Patterson devoted to this topic. (UEA study day, jolly good it was.)
He spent a long time encouraging raising your own queens by promoting emergency cells. His club apiary seems to do well so this works for him.
Works for me too when required but I am only a rank amateur. However I would prefer to wait for natural QC's.

Cazza

 

[Skyhook]

A bit early yet for splitting- a certain proportion of the population could still be old bees on the way out; plus not enough drones yet to get a new queen mated. 8 frames of bees leaves 2 or 3 spare, so no rush.

As you're on double brood I would suggest that demaree (search forum/ Dave Cushman for details) might be a good way to go in a few weeks. By reducing the amount of queen substance without cutting it off suddenly you are likely to get succession cells, and better nourished queens. Once you have sealed cells, you can then decide whether to separate the 2 boxes and just let the top box raise a new queen, split it into nucs for increase, raise a replacement queen for the parent colony, or a combination of the above.

Or you could just enjoy the fact that you've got a nice strong colony, and make sure you super when they need space.


.

 

[Finman]

.
8 frames is not big hive. It is normal after winter.

Let it grow to 5 box hive and then start to think a nuc..


Swarming is normal thing in beekeeping and you cannot avoid it with spliting.

To rear one queen is not wise.

.

 

[oliver90owner]

Cazza,

There is a more than a subtle difference between raising emergency cells in a really strong colony (and selecting the best for queen rearing) and expecting a lowly split to do the same job in isolation. I would think Roger Patterson would be suggesting the former, not the latter of the two options. I could be wrong, but if I am, so is he!!

I much prefer demareeing than emergency cells for a few queens each summer.

Can you confirm which of the two routes he was promoting, please? Just so there is no ambiguity or passing of mis-information!!

 

[Cazza]

Cazza,

There is a more than a subtle difference between raising emergency cells in a really strong colony (and selecting the best for queen rearing) and expecting a lowly split to do the same job in isolation. I would think Roger Patterson would be suggesting the former, not the latter of the two options. I could be wrong, but if I am, so is he!!

I much prefer demareeing than emergency cells for a few queens each summer.

Can you confirm which of the two routes he was promoting, please? Just so there is no ambiguity or passing of mis-information!!

Hi Rab
The former rather than the latter. My point was more about emergency cells being acceptable rather than the method by which one would promote these. However, if the poster waits a few weeks then he should have a really strong colony to play with.
C

 

[Bates]

Personally I found queens produced from emergency cells to be far smaller and generally are not as good as queens grafted or from swarm cells. I also wouldnt be considering splitting now, I would be surprised if there would be enough mature drones around yet for her to mate with if you did.

 

[Finman]

.
The whole idea is grazy that you split your only hive and rear your own queen.

First of all the quality of queen. You just take your only hive and rear one queen.

When I have had 20 hives, it is difficult to find a good queen from where I take larvae.
To use only one hive is pure accident what is quality. Propably not much when virgin mates with some anti varroa chimney colony. it gives some stings but thats nothing.

I would bet that quality of queen is rubbish.

Then that jobs disturbs so much the main hive that you do not get honey. Ok, thats nothing if you loose 15 kg honey but the price of that poor queen is then 105.7 pound.

with laying queen nuc starts to rear new bees at once.
If you grow your own, it takes first 3-4 weeks that it starts to lay.
It is one brood generation.

.
.

 

[CB008]

I am no expert but have produced perfectly adequate emergency queens. It depends on how much you seek perfection. Some people with only a few hives are quite happy just keeping these going and producing some honey without chasing maximum production

 

[Finman]

perfectly adequate emergency queens.

producing some honey without chasing maximum production

with my 50 beekeeping years I just said my opinion. I know what are miserable queens and mad bees.
i chase 100 kg yields/ hive, and not "some".

But however, how pleasant beekeeping is as a hobby, depends on queens and beestock.

Why not take 50 kg yield instead of 10 kg.
.

 

[steve56616]

Interested what Finman was just saying and thought i'd ask this question.
Can a colony be split and then add another queen such a mated Carniolan queen?
I am hoping to split my Buckfast eventually to have another hive and was quite liking what I have been reading about the 'Carniolan'

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Interested what Finman was just saying and thought i'd ask this question.
Can a colony be split and then add another queen such a mated Carniolan queen?
I am hoping to split my Buckfast eventually to have another hive and was quite liking what I have been reading about the 'Carniolan'

Short answer, Yes - make a nuc up with BIAS stores and empty comb, plenty of (young preferably) bees and introduce a bought in queen. Most teachings say that it is easier to introduce a new queen to a nuc. A lot of the early nucs advertised on sale are made up in this way.
It is said however it is harder to introduce a different variety of queen to a nuc of AMM types - no idea if it's true

 

[steve56616]

Thank you for that. I did think I could but just woundered if there would be problems with them accepting a new queen when there was BIAS. My worry would be splitting in a small area with most bees going straight back to origional colony. I asume it has to be done during the summer when the weather is warm?

 

[Swarm]

Transfer frames of brood with bees and shake bees off 3 or 4 frames, fliers will return but you should now have enough nurse bees left in the nuc.

 

[steve56616]

Sorry Andy for taking over the thread, just I am also interested in Splitting at some stage
Im getting myself confused
With this type of split would I leave the original queen in her hive/ same possition and remove frames to nuc in new location? or is the other way round only for A/S?

 

[Finman]

.
It is not easy at all make a nuc and give a new queen.
Bees remember their own queen and tey are ready to kill all others.

If I were you, I would make a nuc over the original hive.
Then there one frame of emerging brood. First shake all bees off.
Then all entrances closed 3 days.
Bees emerge and they feel a new queen their own.
After 3 days entrance open and you have a nuc.
New entrance is opposite direction.

A nuc gets heat from big hive and then a week later you add another frame of emerging bees.

 

[steve56616]

Thanks Finman but I'm lost now
I can't picture how that works