Making Increase without Queen Cells

[farbee]

Most of beekeepers tend to say what ever and they do not change their opinions even if you put 20 researches under their nose. I have known much those guys.

.

Absolutely right and many can only accept their own words as gospel.
Great to have you back and posting great stuff.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In all studies about emergency queens it is reported that emerged queens are
made from 3 days old larvae. Bees rear a while younger larvae but those cells will be destroyed.



.

Why is that I wonder?
You would think that they would use eggs.
Are they that much in a hurry to get a queen of sorts?
The only time I have put in a test frame QCs were made with eggs not larvae

 

[Anduril]

Does anyone have a link to this research that they're able to post?

I do not know the scientific research, what I was told was that the bees cut away the cells below the cells they are going to turn into queens. This way you haven't got bent queen cells as was once thought they go straight down.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Can you make increase by following an AS method, before Queen cells are present. Will the nurse bees develop a queen cell from the eggs in the brood? Will the quality of the queen be any good, or is this what they call a scrub queen?

A scrub queen is one developed in a real emergency situation, probably a few days after the death of a queen when there are few fresh eggs and fewer young bees to tend the QC.

What you are suggesting is basically a 'walkaway split' done properly there will be no difference. The important thing is that there are plenty of young nurse bees to produce copious quality royal jelly, and the larva is as young as possible in the QC.
Ensure that the Q- side of the split has plenty of eggs and plenty of brood on the point of emerging.
Go into the Q- hive three days after the split and knock down any sealed QC's (these will be from older larvae and not as good as ones from newly hatched eggs)

remember that a few on here, and their sychophants will make noises about these queens never being viable, but they are immersed in their own dogma and won't listen to new teachings and facts 'even if you put 20 researches under their nose'.
I prefer to listen to those who I know move with the times and are renowned for their knowledge in this field, such as Wally Shaw et al.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

How strongly "discouraged" is sibling mating in

It's positively encouraged in the West of my land, practically a tradition - don't know about the bees though.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I prefer to listen to those who I know move with the times and are renowned for their knowledge in this field, such as Wally Shaw et al.

I've heard Wally say he leaves the new hive alone. Splits then truly walks away.
He says there is no need to remove QCs, the bees sort themselves out and he's never had a split swarm.

 

[Finman]

Splits then truly walks away.

What happens then?

It takes at least 45 days (1,5 months) that the new queen starts to get new workers.


How long it takes to get a proper wintering colony with this method?

.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What happens then?

It takes at least 45 days (1,5 months) that the new queen starts to get new workers.


How long it takes to get a proper wintering colony with this method?

.

Well, you could say the same making increase with AS, which people do.
My point was that his attitude is that the bees will sort their new queen out without the beekeeper returning to reduce the number of queen cells the colony makes.
I wouldn't have the nerve for that but he says it works.....shrug!!

 

[Finman]

.
OK, if someone uses emergency queens as queens. Let him use.

If someone says that emercency queens are as good as normal queens, let it be. Waste of time to bebate with him.

I do not accept even superceded queens because they are not selected by me.
They are quite average quality as I have seen them.

Good fat queens from best mother hives are basic of my beekeeping and it is hard job to keep quality high.

Let it be and walk away, it is not my case. I have seen those beekeepers enough.

-

 

[Dishmop]

.
OK, if someone uses emergency queens as queens. Let him use.

If someone says that emercency queens are as good as normal queens, let it be. Waste of time to bebate with him.

I do not accept even superceded queens because they are not selected By me.

Good fat queens from best mother hives are basic of my beekeeping and it is hard job to keep quality high.

Let it be and walk away, it is not my case. I have seen that enough.

-

..

Originally Posted by Finman View Post
Most of beekeepers tend to say what ever and they do not change their opinions even if you put 20 researches under their nose. I have known much those guys.

 

[itma]

I think some respondents to this thread may be missing the point that it started by discussing "making increase" from one hive to two.

It ain't about special queen rearing colonies. That can come later.

 

[iand]

Can you make increase by following an AS method, before Queen cells are present. Will the nurse bees develop a queen cell from the eggs in the brood? Will the quality of the queen be any good, or is this what they call a scrub queen?

If you read Alan Dick @ honey bee world, he does a "walk away split" they rear their own queen, but they must be a decent colony. A mate tried a few last summer when short of available queens, they have done very well so far.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, no mention of checking for multiple QCs in the Q- split.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I think the consensus of this thread is yes, but there is another way which saves you 1.5 months which might be worth the 30 quid for a queen which hopefully is known to be good into the bargain. Makes sense to me.

 

[REDWOOD]

I attended the lecture tonight on pre-emptive swarm control by Wally Shaw and the Q- split was his best method, I did ask him do you knock down QC to a couple and obvious answer was leave them to it only the strongest queen will survive. He is in a lucky situation where he has 46 hives with seven apiaries on an island with no beekeepers importing foreign queens

 

[itma]

I think the consensus of this thread is yes, but there is another way which saves you 1.5 months which might be worth the 30 quid for a queen which hopefully is known to be good into the bargain. Makes sense to me.

Two points.
6 weeks of a brood break (and in the Q- part only) is a worst-case scenario.
The beekeeping season is longer in the UK than in the frozen North.



However, any Q of swarmy stock is pretty likely to produce swarmy daughter Qs - and that would be regardless of whether the daughters were produced from QCs created under 'swarm' or 'emergency' impulse.
So, if your stock has come from collected swarms, buying-in some good Qs is likely to be very worthwhile indeed - from a stock improvement perspective - regardless of any hope of getting a crop from a split in the same year.

 

[Dishmop]

Can you make increase by following an AS method, before Queen cells are present. Will the nurse bees develop a queen cell from the eggs in the brood? Will the quality of the queen be any good, or is this what they call a scrub queen?

The answers are yes, no reason why not, and yes.

Its a recognised way that some people use and its also what some people say is completely the wrong thing to do because its not what THEY do.

 

[jd101k2000]

I listened to Wally Shaw's talk at the Spring Convention this year.
He talked through a number of methods of split and artificial swarm. To perform any of the methods without loss in honey yield required an element of timing.
In the UK there is (apparently) a dip in the amount of forage sometime in June.
My understanding of his talk is that by timing the split/AS to coincide with this means that you can actually increase production compared to doing nothing.

It is interesting that another recent thread on here, about decoding the waggle dance, gives evidence for this difficulty in finding forage in the summer, in the UK. Bees have to travel much further.

Now, I am a beginner, so I may be adding 1 + 1 = 3, but perhaps this is one of the differences between bee keeping in the UK and other lands? It might suggest why some UK practises would not work in other lands and vice versa.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I listened to Wally Shaw's talk at the Spring Convention this year.
He talked through a number of methods of split and artificial swarm. To perform any of the methods without loss in honey yield required an element of timing.
In the UK there is (apparently) a dip in the amount of forage sometime in June.
My understanding of his talk is that by timing the split/AS to coincide with this means that you can actually increase production compared to doing nothing.

The June Gap you describe seems the ultimate time to do lots of these handy manipulations....the trouble is that many colonies throughout the UK have already made swarm preparations well before this.