low swarming tendency line

[jeff33]

Timely subject and probably discussed yearly but I am seeking the view of others.

I thought I would try to get the upper hand on the ladies this year (local mongrels with a strong Welsh accent) and put all my hives on double brood hoping that would suffice to reduce the swarming instinct. I proceeded to demaree the hives about 3 weeks ago but still had to A/S all my hives last weekend (better than last year though when they were ready to swarm mid-april).

I see a lot of advertising for bees and queens with a low swarming tendency. I have always kept local bees and never bought a queen online from these places so my experience of other lines is limited.

So what can you honestly define as low swarming tendency, what is normal and what is high? Has anyone got bees happy to stay put??

 

[B+.]

So what can you honestly define as low swarming tendency, what is normal and what is high? Has anyone got bees happy to stay put??

A low swarming drive is a line that shows no signs of swarming.
Younger queens are less likely to swarm so part of the "secret" must be maintaining young queens in your hives. It makes sense, therefore, to rear your own or have access to a renewable supply of good stock.
This is not enough though. It is just one trait that is valuable to beekeepers. You will find a more detailed explanation here (http://coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/3/3). In BeeBreed, we breed queens like this (https://youtu.be/KGZ0ZmN-W8M) which express the traits quite well. The colony that this queen has produced currently occupies a double Langstroth brood area and has drawn 3 boxes of deep Langstroth foundation before filling most of it with honey.

 

[Bosleeu]

Timely subject and probably discussed yearly but I am seeking the view of others.

I thought I would try to get the upper hand on the ladies this year (local mongrels with a strong Welsh accent) and put all my hives on double brood hoping that would suffice to reduce the swarming instinct. I proceeded to demaree the hives about 3 weeks ago but still had to A/S all my hives last weekend (better than last year though when they were ready to swarm mid-april).

I see a lot of advertising for bees and queens with a low swarming tendency. I have always kept local bees and never bought a queen online from these places so my experience of other lines is limited.

So what can you honestly define as low swarming tendency, what is normal and what is high? Has anyone got bees happy to stay put??

I have kept most kinds of bees, but have settled on Buckfast. Easy to work with and have definitely noticed a reduction in swarming.

The notion of keeping only local mongrels does not appeal to me at all (I don't like getting stung and always being worried about swarming) , to the extent that I will requeen any swarms I collect as a matter of course now.

In my apiary any colony that needs smoke or shows signs of swarming is requeened with a bought in Buckfast or the daughter of one of my best queens.

I have also stopped using excluders and try to super generously - I think that certainly reduces swarming and leads to stronger colonies and more honey. Only one of the colonies have made any swarm preparations so far.

The Queen below came from Germany in 2014, never swarmed and her daughters are some of the best in my apiary. She is now old and slow, and "retired" in a Nuc, where they finally seem to be planning a supercedure.

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[Beefriendly]

I have kept most kinds of bees, but have settled on Buckfast. Easy to work with and have definitely noticed a reduction in swarming.

It's not that Buckfast bees will not swarm, but they rarely do it in their first full seaso with anew queen and many will keep on going for much longer. My oldest Buckfast queen was mated in 2014 and only this year have they attempted to swarm.
I would also add when I kept local mongrel bees from my area they were annual swarmers regardless of the age of the queen or amount of space they had. Come this time of the year every single hive would decide it was time to go. Trying to breed queens from the least "swarmy" stock was an oxymoron.

 

[jeff33]

It sounds exactly like mine, all my queens are 2016. I will end up spending £1000s on equipment and be overwhelmed by hives if it carries on that way!!

 

[Eyeman]

I thought I would try to get the upper hand on the ladies this year (local mongrels with a strong Welsh accent) and put all my hives on double brood hoping that would suffice to reduce the swarming instinct. I proceeded to demaree the hives about 3 weeks ago but still had to A/S all my hives last weekend (better than last year though when they were ready to swarm mid-april).

As you have done my aim is to delay swarming till after the spring flow is over, so for another 2 weeks until the Hawthorne's over. I enjoy breeding from my best stock and the odd hive that needs A/S provides an easy way to rear new queens from grafts of my chosen breeder stock. Keeping an equal number of nucs to honey production colonies makes it easy to re-queen when necessary so it's not too difficult to keep on top of feisty or poorly performing colonies.
Mine are doing well at the moment: 2 out of the 19 production colonies and 5 out of the 21 double nuc support colonies have so far needed to be A/S. I tend to miss supercedure on my double nationals and nucs as I rely on tilting the top box to look underneath for QC's for routine inspections +\- taking a few frames out if I'm unsure.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

All bees want to swarm - Buckfasts are no different.
All (bar one mediocre colony) of my colonies are local/Welsh bees and don't swarm at the drop of a hat, in fact, many are reluctant to swarm period.
Maybe look at your swarm management system before flooding the area with imports?

 

[Bosleeu]

Buckfasts are different. Better than mongrels in every way.

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[B+.]

Buckfasts are different. Better than mongrels in every way.

Google "mongrel":
One of the definitions is "any animal resulting from the crossing of different breeds or types." The "Buckfast" is a synthetic strain resulting from various crosses so this definition would appear to fit.
Personally, I prefer a definition where the parentage is unknown, so, even within pure races you could have "mongrel" strains where the mating was uncontrolled. The question is: does it breed pure?

 

[Bosleeu]

Google "mongrel":
One of the definitions is "any animal resulting from the crossing of different breeds or types." The "Buckfast" is a synthetic strain resulting from various crosses so this definition would appear to fit.
Personally, I prefer a definition where the parentage is unknown, so, even within pure races you could have "mongrel" strains where the mating was uncontrolled. The question is: does it breed pure?

I agree. Yes, per definition the Buckfast could be called a "mongrel". My comparison is between bees that have been crossed and selected to achieve certain goals within a breeding program and bees that have not been. As in the Buckfast as a strain of bee and local mongrels as a mixture of whatever is around in the area.

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[Bosleeu]

In Holland they refer to local bees as "Street bees" which sums it up nicely.

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[jeff33]

Maybe look at your swarm management system before flooding the area with imports?

I don't intend to import or flood my area with imports however appealing it may be. As in my initial message I am just trying to figure out what is the norm or if indeed it is my management that needs reviewing. It can be difficult to compare when you have nothing to compare against!!

 

[Bosleeu]

A low swarming drive is a line that shows no signs of swarming.
Younger queens are less likely to swarm so part of the "secret" must be maintaining young queens in your hives. It makes sense, therefore, to rear your own or have access to a renewable supply of good stock.
This is not enough though. It is just one trait that is valuable to beekeepers. You will find a more detailed explanation here (http://coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/3/3). In BeeBreed, we breed queens like this (https://youtu.be/KGZ0ZmN-W8M) which express the traits quite well. The colony that this queen has produced currently occupies a double Langstroth brood area and has drawn 3 boxes of deep Langstroth foundation before filling most of it with honey.

That is a beautiful queen.

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[B+.]

That is a beautiful queen.

Yes. I am very happy with her.
I have about 30 grafts from her in the cell raiser at the moment, so, I hope to rear lots of good daughter queens from her.

 

[Beefriendly]

I don't intend to import or flood my area with imports however appealing it may be. As in my initial message I am just trying to figure out what is the norm or if indeed it is my management that needs reviewing. It can be difficult to compare when you have nothing to compare against!!

Might I suggest you buy a couple of decent queens of a different strain from a reputable supplier and see how they compare to your locals. Cheaper than all that extra equipment. If you keep them side by side in the same apiary as your locals it won't take you long to find out which bees swarm less and which ones you prefer to keep.
In my case I no longer keep local random bred mongrels but designer bred ones.

 

[jeff33]

Might I suggest you buy a couple of decent queens of a different strain from a reputable supplier and see how they compare to your locals. Cheaper than all that extra equipment. If you keep them side by side in the same apiary as your locals it won't take you long to find out which bees swarm less and which ones you prefer to keep.
In my case I no longer keep local random bred mongrels but designer bred ones.

This is what I would like to do if I can find a local breeder of local bees as I don't want Carnolians or Buckfast....I like the idea of designer bred mongrels...do they come with bling?

 

[Teemore]

Colony/apiary management has a lot to do with swarming in your stocks. I am of the view that where a beekeeper harvests young bees and occasional frames of Brood to make up mating Nucs/Nucs, it helps to hold the colonies back from swarming.
Over the past four years over 50% of my stocks have not swarmed (hopefully not tempting fate there) and I am in a position that i presently have 3 x 2014 queens heading colonies that have never swarmed. I made a nuc up last Friday with another 2014 queen from a stock that was making its first "dedicated" attempt to swarm. I believe it has been stated on this forum that commercial beekeepers would expect to see similar levels of swarming across their apiaries.
Quite often you will find signs that colonies have changed their minds about swarming, often when the weather turns for the worse.

 

[Bosleeu]

This is what I would like to do if I can find a local breeder of local bees as I don't want Carnolians or Buckfast....I like the idea of designer bred mongrels...do they come with bling?

Totally respect you decision not to want Buckfast or Carni, but as far as descriptions go "designer bred mongrel" sums up the Buckfast. As far as queen breeders in the UK go for locally selected "British Queens " Google lists quite a few but not any I have experience of. Maybe buy a few as suggested and see? Good luck and hope you find what you are looking for.

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[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't intend to import or flood my area with imports however appealing it may be. As in my initial message I am just trying to figure out what is the norm or if indeed it is my management that needs reviewing. It can be difficult to compare when you have nothing to compare against!!

PM'd you

 

[madasafish]

My polyhive has a three year old queen from The Beeman. It has never swarmed..