Lost hived swarms

[dickbowyer]

I have now lost the first two swarms hived in my garden apiary. First was swarm from one of my hives kindly hived by a local Beek whist I was at work by walking into a new National brood box with undrawn foundation on Hoffman frames without Queen includer but they had swarmed out by the time I got home late afternoon. The second in the picture was conveniently hanging from a low rose bush yesterday evening in the garden about 7:30pm and likely to have come from a feral colony in the wall of a barn house forming the side to my apiary which swarmed to that area before I kept bees. Shook into cleaned national brood box with new comb as before with Queen includer, bees fanning at entrance with entrance block in place and moved into apiary area about 8:30pm. They were happily flying in and out this morning but left around midday as viewed on beecam. Am I doing something fundamentally wrong or have they just made their collective minds up that somewhere was better to stay and this is not an uncommon experience when hiving bees back in garden apiary from whence they came?

 

[VEG]

just luck of the draw. You could try adding a frame of brood that may hold them there.

 

[Tom Bick]

If you had a queen excluder in place on the 2nd swarm and they left then perhaps something was wrong.

I am assuming the queen excluder was under the BB then it’s a bit odd that the queen got through it, although its not impossible, or did you miss the queen?

 

[VEG]

Some queens can be quite small until mated.

 

[dickbowyer]

Thanks, I suppose what I was really trying to get at was how often does hiving a swarm fail?

 

[Poly Hive]

Not very often if you give them a frame of brood. This is no doubt famous last words but I have never had a swarm leave, even with no brood added.

Nor have I ever used excluder on them.

Odd.

PH

 

[mandabow]

don't know stats, sorry

use predrawn comb that has been used for brood.. or feeding them then stopping can encourage them to start drawing comb if you havn't any predrawn spare. queen won't lay until its drawn and they won't think of it as home until they have some brood (or at least stores) to protect. even then they can change their mind if it smells wrong etc.

but if combs are fully drawn then she can start laying straight away and they will settle.. queens seem a bit lazy and would prefer to stay, (and not to swarm in the first place) by giving them fresh foundation you give scouts more time to find somewhere more suitable before the queen's able to brood there.. the quicker there is brood (better if hers, but as veg says other brood would work too, capped better as less likely to reject them on smell of their mother basis)

the less likely they are to want to move on

 

[chickendave]

I agree with PH
In the last two years I must have hived around 16 swarms, I have never added a frame of brood and again famous last words I have never had a swarm leave even with no brood added plus I have never used a excluder on them (just incase virgin queen)
But another person in our local club who has collected around 10 swarms all but one has left their new home, whats the differance who knows perhaps the bees are picky who they want to be with ?

 

[winmag270]

Shook into cleaned national brood box with new comb

may i ask how you cleaned your brood box?

could it be it was "too clean" or smelling of something you've cleaned it with?

I use one of my old brood boxes that's been lightly gone over with a blow torch and always try to include one drawn frame (preferably an old one that's had brood in it), once the swarm is happy in it's new home, i usually transfer it into a different BB and retain the old one for swarm collecting....

 

[dickbowyer]

Just a light browning with a blow torch and a scrape!
That said, neither swarms have wanted to go into bait hive 7ft up, south facing, with old brood comb, in old brood box and narrow entrance with sware lure cleaned as above, 40 yards from original hive or feral colony! Last year feral colony swarmed 5 yards into similar bait hive on hive stand. I don't understand?

 

[drstitson]

superboost (brood pheromone) inserts are supposed to work if you don't have spare brood frame handy.

 

[dickbowyer]

Just as an update, walked in a similar caste in to a poly nuc last thursday evening with 2 drawn combs and 4 foundation and they stayed happily.

 

[nonstandard]

I hived a swarm about this time last year, they promptly left and settled in a hedge about 20ft away. They were re-captured and hived again this time on a solig d floor and with a foam strip in the entrance.

I removed the foam the following morning and they stayed with no problems until I killed the queen and then her replacement (it's along story).

Advice from our local assoc seems to be to keep in the box/skep for up to 36 hrs (depending how long they have been out) and then hive in the early evening.

 

[nelletap]

It might be worth going through a check list of basics. For example, I didn't realise at one stage that for a bait hive (and presumably a location for a swarm) it is recommended the varroa floor panel is in rather than leaving the open mesh floor which would let in more light / air (and I suppose may make scout bees or other bees think the location is less secure/private/warm).
I've got a swarm (that stayed) and also seem to have a swarm in my bait hive. I did use lemongrass oil in both the new hives these are in.
Tricia
PS didn't put in frame of brood. Did add just a little feed to the swarm from mentor's advice. QE at bottom for about 3 days but instincts suggest the disruption of moving it may be a bad idea.

 

[eddiespangle]

I hived a swarm last week – I now think it was a cast swarm from one of my ASs. I found the queen dead in the QE the following day. She was quite small (only 1 or 2 mm longer than a worker and 2 mm or so shorter than a mature queen). It looks as if she got stuck trying to get through the excluder.

 

[Skyhook]

I hived a swarm last week – I now think it was a cast swarm from one of my ASs. I found the queen dead in the QE the following day. She was quite small (only 1 or 2 mm longer than a worker and 2 mm or so shorter than a mature queen). It looks as if she got stuck trying to get through the excluder.

Thanks for that Eddy. I wondered whether or not to leave a QE in a hive that's trying to re-queen itself as I was worried about a virgin trying to squeeze through. Glad now I didn't.

 

[clare p]

I feel a bit better now....
I hived a swarm last week, new frames/foundation and they left the next day,
I felt so sad for so many days, I felt rejected!
So, it is not just me.

 

[PaleoPerson]

Last year hived a small swarm by letting them walk in. 5 minutes later, they walked straight out again and back onto the cloth. Changed the hive over and they marched back in and stayed.

There must have been something about the first hive they did not like. This was confusing as both hives were identical. Made from the same materials at the same time and both unused.

Fickle bees.

 

[Cazza]

Having never lost a hived swarm ( and I've hived many over the years) I felt pretty smug....until this year.
I hived the same swarm 4 times in the same day and twice the day after. I used all the tricks except the QE. They still upped and left. The same hive now has a lovely swarm in it. Hived with no problems at all....why?
Cazza

 

[Headnavigator]

Hived my first swarm four weeks ago into a new hive and foundation and was told by v experienced beek who brought them to me to put them straight onto heavy (2:1) syrup. Yes my eyebrows shot up, but I did as told despite all the stick on here, and they are fine, quite a bit of syrup stored but Q laying well and they're using the stores now and I shall wait till there is definitely honey in their stores before putting a super on. Hived a second swarm last week who didn't want to go in and had virgin queen and nasty swarmy history. I didn't feed, rather on the basis of 'what will be will be', and despite my
uncertainty they have stuck at it, settled down after all and are also fine. So what is the magic factor that keeps them in place? Location? (see John Harding's book). Get your dowsing rods out and see if his theory applies?