Location of brood nest

[ShinySideUp]

Let's say, just for arguments sake, I was to remove the queen excluder from a 14 x 12 brood box and let the queen wander wherever she wanted in a stack of, say, three supers. Where would she be likely to establish her brood nest? Top, bottom or middle?

The reason I'm asking is I had a thought about nadirs and how much of a faff it was to take honey-filled supers and get them underneath the brood box for winter supplies, only to get them out again in the spring and put them back on the top. I'd like to leave some supers in situ without a QX and work around what the queen has done when Spring arrives.

My thinking is that I would just end up with a large brood box and a load of supers full of honey, pollen, and BIAS, in other words, a right bloody mess; but a little part of me hoped things might be a litle more organised than that.

 

[Patrick1]

After the winter almost certainly in the top super.

If you don’t want to extract, cut out comb sections of around 100gm and it will sell all day at a real profit, if you have too much try local restaurants, they love to serve it as a garnish.

On the subject of supers under brood, its not the best policy, take the supers off put another brood box on and feed or put the supers above a crown board with one of the opening open and they will “Rob” the stores down to the brood box.

The super is for food, the brood box for brood start mixing things up and you are creating problems for the future, like protein for wax moths in the supers, contamination of the wax in a food area.
Unfortunately that last comment will start people thinking about contaminated honey and bees moving stores from brood areas after treatment to supers

 

[Finman]

I have nursed hives 60 years without excluder.

Key factor is ventilaton. Too much ventilation/cold forces brood area up. Proper ventilation keeps brood area in lower boxes.

Workers order where the brood area will be. The queen does not wander around and does noy lay here and there.

Bees tend to keep the brood space compact.
The beekeeper has his own rules and try to fight against bees' instincts.

 

[Finman]

After the winter almost certainly in the top super.

If you don’t want to extract, cut out comb sections of around 100gm and it will sell all day at a real profit, if you have too much try local restaurants, they love to serve it as a garnish.

On the subject of supers under brood, its not the best policy, take the supers off put another brood box on and feed or put the supers above a crown board with one of the opening open and they will “Rob” the stores down to the brood box.

Patrick. You really have odd advices"

- cut 100 g slices from combs
- let bees rob allready stored honey

Holes in combs mean drone brood here and there. Cuting combs will destroy your combs. When combs has been drawn, the comb wax as as much honey and the cells.

When bees must move its stores many times the honey will be consumed in useless work. The loss will be perhaps 50%. Together with cutted combs your honey yield will be wasted in strange operations.

 

[Patrick1]

Although bees will move the cluster to wherever the food is.
Separation from the stores is the one of the most common causes of colony losses during winter.
Traditionally Langstroth boxes have no more ventilation than the front entrance, solid floors and unvented roofs are common.
Bees in a tree for instance exist the same way, that is why the Langstroth style and all its variations are the worlds most used hive.

 

[Patrick1]

Patrick. You really have odd advices"

- cut 100 g slices from combs
- let bees rob allready stored honey

Holes in combs mean drone brood here and there. Cuting combs will destroy your combs. When combs has been drawn, the comb wax as as much honey and the cells.

When bees must move its stores many times the honey will be consumed in useless work. The loss will be perhaps 50%. Together with cutted combs your honey yield will be wasted in strange operations.

I don’t understand the drone reference, that aside as you well know asking 12 beekeepers a question almost guarantees 13 answers

The information/advice is always going to be varied. I am happy to let the recipient try all the methods suggested, the more the better providing they are tried and tested by the presenter.

This is my beekeeping, things I do.

 

[elainemary]

Patrick. You really have odd advices"

- cut 100 g slices from combs
- let bees rob allready stored honey

Holes in combs mean drone brood here and there.

When bees must move its stores many times the honey will be consumed in useless work. The loss will be perhaps 50%.

Not sure the loss will be as high as this. I’ve under supered last 4 seasons & measured the consumption of stores across 10 colonies. On average used 23lb stores each winter through to end March. Each spring the super has come out clean, with the exception of one comb where the queen laid a small patch of brood. Under supering doesn’t take long, supers empty of brood (& any pollen) in the spring and provides a bit of extra insulation / space from drafts from the open mesh floor, if open for ventilation. Also don’t have to go hunting for the queen in the supers before putting the queen excluder back.
The other advantage is if you put any form of varroa strips in they are easy to whip out of the brood box in Nov when chilly and you don’t have to take supers off to get at them. Easy to vap from the top with an eke for oxalic acid in winter too.

 

[Finman]

Although bees will move the cluster to wherever the food is.
Separation from the stores is the one of the most common causes of colony losses during winter.
Traditionally Langstroth boxes have no more ventilation than the front entrance, solid floors and unvented roofs are common.
Bees in a tree for instance exist the same way, that is why the Langstroth style and all its variations are the worlds most used hive.

I cannot accept none of your opinions.

I have langstroth hives.
What heck bees in trees? No one nurse his bees in tree holes.

Nursing hives over winter and spring has nothing to do with summer nursing.

 

[Finman]

Not sure the loss will be as high as this. I’ve under supered last 4 seasons & measured the consumption of stores across 10 colonies. On average used 23lb stores each winter through to end March. Each spring the super has come out clean, with the exception of one comb where the queen laid a small patch of brood. Under supering doesn’t take long, supers empty of brood (& any pollen) in the spring and provides a bit of extra insulation / space from drafts from the open mesh floor, if open for ventilation. Also don’t have to go hunting for the queen in the supers before putting the queen excluder back.
The other advantage is if you put any form of varroa strips in they are easy to whip out of the brood box in Nov when chilly and you don’t have to take supers off to get at them. Easy to vap from the top with an eke for oxalic acid in winter too.

There are researches, which tell that bees use 24% out of original sugar in processing when they move syrup ftom feeding box to the capped cells.

What idea is to put ready honey under the cluster, when bees basic idea is to store its winter stores above the cluster.

I move all brood frames down before I feed bees for winter.

Nursing bees without excluder has nothing to do with wintering.

 

[elainemary]

There are researches, which tell that bees use 24% out of original sugar in processing when they move syrup ftom feeding box to the capped cells.

What idea is to put ready honey under the cluster, when bees basic idea is to store its winter stores above the cluster.

I move all brood frames down before I feed bees for winter.

Can you share a link to the research please.
I’ve found the bees bring up the stores and put them all around the brood nest and consume them over winter. They do this really quickly within a week of under supering, provided the space is available in the nest. I also put the super under before it’s capped usually at some point in September as agree uncapping it would be a waste of energy.

 

[Finman]

I don’t understand the drone reference, that aside as you well know asking 12 beekeepers a question almost guarantees 13 answers

After nursing bees 60 years I do not need to ask from 12 beekeepers, what happens when I cut a hole to the honey comb.

 

[Boston Bees]

After nursing bees 60 years I do not need to ask from 12 beekeepers, what happens when I cut a hole to the honey comb.

Patrick wasn't talking about cutting holes in combs and putting the comb back in the hive. He was talking about selling cut comb honey i.e. cutting a whole frame of comb into chunks and selling it.

 

[Finman]

I’ve found the bees bring up the stores and put them all around the brood nest and consume them over winter.

Bees do not put stores around the hive. It is nectar in summer and syrup in autumn what they spread in the hive. Meaning is to dry up the stuff. Then they store the food nicely from up to down and cap the stores. They cap cells only if cells are full.
If you do not feed syrup enough to bees, they will not cap the cells.

 

[Finman]

After nursing bees 60 years I do not need to ask from 12 beekeepers, what happens when I cut a hole to the honey comb.

Making comb honey is very different story.

 

[Finman]

Sorry guys. I cannot continue this kind of discussion. You can solve the problems without me.

I extract my honeys and feed hives with syrup. I want honey from hives.

Original question was about location of brood nest, if you leave the excluder off.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Let's say, just for arguments sake, I was to remove the queen excluder from a 14 x 12 brood box and let the queen wander wherever she wanted in a stack of, say, three supers. Where would she be likely to establish her brood nest? Top, bottom or middle?

The reason I'm asking is I had a thought about nadirs and how much of a faff it was to take honey-filled supers and get them underneath the brood box for winter supplies, only to get them out again in the spring and put them back on the top. I'd like to leave some supers in situ without a QX and work around what the queen has done when Spring arrives.

My thinking is that I would just end up with a large brood box and a load of supers full of honey, pollen, and BIAS, in other words, a right bloody mess; but a little part of me hoped things might be a litle more organised than that.

A 14x12 hive is big enough to hold enough winter stores to last them through. you don't need to add any other extra boxes either above or below that. Just take everything off and super again in the spring.
The sensible thing would be, even if you run without QX's, towards the end of the flow, when all the supers are full of stores and the queen is back in the brood box, put the QX back in until you harvest the crop.

 

[oliver90owner]

A 14x12 hive is big enough to hold enough winter stores to last them through. you don't need to add any other extra boxes either above or below that. Just take everything off and super again in the spring.
The sensible thing would be, even if you run without QX's, towards the end of the flow, when all the supers are full of stores and the queen is back in the brood box, put the QX back in until you harvest the crop.

I’m so glad that at least JBM is thinking. Full 14 x 12 boxes do not need any extra storage for virtually all English-location winters. Probably all in the UK, even.

Posting ‘just for argument’s sake’ when really it is the winter that is involved is just that. Bees will move to where the food is not below them at most times of the year but the nest will very likely extend to the supers in spring. Warmth retention, within the brood nest, is the aim of the bees but not at the risk of losing stores below the nest. The clear exception is when they use up stores on the warm side during a particularly harsh winter.

 

[Finman]

Very strange.

Original question was, what happens to brood nest when you leave excluder off?

Like Jenkins said, nothing happens. Bees start to fill honey combs from top to downwards, and brood nest moves downwards.

If hives are too full, hives swarm two times at the first half of summer. After swarming you do not need to worry about getting too much honey. Yield and foragers will go with swarms. If the hive is NOT too full of honey, they will swarm however.

Bees fill combs from top to downwards. What heck idea is such that you must move capped stores down, that bees can move the stores again up!

I am sure that bees have wintered in Britain so many hundred years, that there is no need to reinvent it any more.

When you start to keep bees, you must learn first basic instincts of bee behaviour.
If you try to teach to bees your behaviour, odd things will happen in you apiary.

 

[Bumble Bee Slim]

Very strange.

Original question was, what happens to brood nest when you leave excluder off?

Like Jenkins said, nothing happens. Bees start to fill honey combs from top to downwards, and brood nest moves downwards.

If hives are too full, hives swarm two times at the first half of summer. After swarming you do not need to worry about getting too much honey. Yield and foragers will go with swarms. If the hive is NOT too full of honey, they will swarm however.

Bees fill combs from top to downwards. What heck idea is such that you must move capped stores down, that bees can move the stores again up!

I am sure that bees have wintered in Britain so many hundred years, that there is no need to reinvent it any more.

When you start to keep bees, you must learn first basic instincts of bee behaviour.
If you try to teach to bees your behaviour, odd things will happen in you apiary.

I would not wish "my behaviour" on my worst enemies let alone my precious bees and I think them capable of enough "odd" shenanigans without my input !

 

[Finman]

[QUOTE="Patrick1, post: 788321, member: . I am happy to let the recipient try all the methods suggested, the more the better

This is my beekeeping, things I do.
[/QUOTE]

Really bad....