Light on stores advice please

[nessabee]

Hi I’m hoping for some advice as I’m very new to this I’ve had my girls since June ( lovely gentle Buckfasts ) I fed for about a month then they seemed to be overcrowded so I added a super as I was concerned they might swarm Now I they are very light on stores in brood box but 7 sealed frames in super (which I intend to leave for them over winter as I’m paranoid about losing them) I saw no brood or eggs today (but I’m rubbish at spotting eggs anyway ) & the frames are still covered in bees but I did see the queen .... has she just gone off laying or winding down for winter ? Should I put the super over or under the brood for winter feed & should I treat with Apiguard regardless of very low varoa drop ? Sorry so many questions but just want to get it right

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you've been feeding them constantly for a month they are cetainly not light on stores - having an almost full super will tell you that. If you haven't stopped feeding then I'd say you should stop now.
If you've seen the queen but no brood then there's a good chance she's on a brood break - only time will tell, check again in a few weeks (the need for weekly inspections is way past.)
The frames in the super are sealed, so leave them on top for the winter after removing the queen excluder.
Just be mindful that in the spring, the queen will be up there laying so you'll have to ensure she's down in the broodbox before replacing the excluder.
As a beginner I'd say go ahead and treat now.
Over the winter I suggest you read up a bit on feeding, how much stores bees need etc and start off the next season better armed.

 

[victor meldrew]

I have such a colony .
you would be better off leaving the super for them ! It’s likely to be contaminated with sugar .
I would clear them from the super leaving them with no option but to store honey down stairs .
keep an eye on them . Not many swarms approaching September .
I would give them their super back under the brood box later .
there is time yet for a honey flow which you can harvest .
IMHO.

 

[enrico]

Please be careful inspecting this time of the year, if you injure, kill or lose your queen they are doomed!
E

 

[nessabee]

If you've been feeding them constantly for a month they are cetainly not light on stores - having an almost full super will tell you that. If you haven't stopped feeding then I'd say you should stop now.
If you've seen the queen but no brood then there's a good chance she's on a brood break - only time will tell, check again in a few weeks (the need for weekly inspections is way past.)
The frames in the super are sealed, so leave them on top for the winter after removing the queen excluder.
Just be mindful that in the spring, the queen will be up there laying so you'll have to ensure she's down in the broodbox before replacing the excluder.
As a beginner I'd say go ahead and treat now.
Over the winter I suggest you read up a bit on feeding, how much stores bees need etc and start off the next season better armed.

i will be reading plenty as I have done already I just hoped for some quick friendly impartial advice as a beginner whilst waiting for my local mentor to be arranged
I’m sorry if you misunderstood I’m not feeding now but I fed them for a month in June as advised by the supplier as he said the nuc was ‘a bit light’
My concern is the lack of stores & brood & was asking if I need to be concerned
I realise that what they stored in the super is not ‘real’ honey but It will be left for them over winter anyway I have already removed the excluder as I don’t intend harvesting any honey this season
I will treat for varoa as you suggested

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have such a colony .
you would be better off leaving the super for them ! It’s likely to be contaminated with sugar .
I would clear them from the super leaving them with no option but to store honey down stairs .
keep an eye on them . Not many swarms approaching September .
I would give them their super back under the brood box later .
there is time yet for a honey flow which you can harvest .
IMHO.

A lot of people seem to advocate leaving a whole super underneath for winter.
what is your rationale for this rather than on top?

5 years ago nadiring a shallow was practically unheard of now it’s all over the place.

 

[Swarm]

I'm wondering about 'time enough yet for a flow' while watching the trees bending at ridiculous angles and the driving rain of the second named storm within a week .
Can't fault the optimism.

 

[bingevader]

A lot of people seem to advocate leaving a whole super underneath for winter.
what is your rationale for this rather than on top?

5 years ago nadiring a shallow was practically unheard of now it’s all over the place.

I don't understand that either, we have always left a whole super, but we've always left the super on top where the stores should be.
Do the bees then have to shift all the honey back up into the brood box before winter?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do the bees then have to shift all the honey back up into the brood box before winter?

Yes - the original (and sensible) aim was either to move an empty shallow underneath the brood to give the bees room to shift down a bit whilst being fed and putting winter stores up top or to give a buffer zone between the brood and the OMF to obviate draughts. Or to put frames with dribs and drabs of unripe/uncapped honey underneath to get the bees to move it up top for winter.
Now, all of a sudden, without any thought it's the fashion and we hear of some eagerly waiting for the bees to pack a super full of stores (be it syrup or honey) then whipping it off and putting it underneath forcing them to shift it all a agin and/or putting the stores slap back near the entrance leaving it harder to defend and open to robbing

 

[victor meldrew]

A lot of people seem to advocate leaving a whole super underneath for winter.
what is your rationale for this rather than on top?

5 years ago nadiring a shallow was practically unheard of now it’s all over the place.

The Queen is least likely to lay in a nadired super .
having said that this year a tiny swarm arrived at my apiary late June and entered a super which they just about filled . I placed it on a floor and put a brood box on top , hoping they would move up into it . The didn‘t. I then placed them on top of the brood box and they moved down wards .They have since expanded and filled the brood box . They have since filled 3 supers with honey including the one that was their home for a short spell .

 

[fiat500bee]

A lot of people seem to advocate leaving a whole super underneath for winter.
what is your rationale for this rather than on top?

5 years ago nadiring a shallow was practically unheard of now it’s all over the place.

I'm sure this was discussed last week and some wise contributors clearly defined that the correct location for leaving a full winter box of honey was above the brood-box. The way bees naturally store honey and then consume it through the winter would surely indicate that they want it above them.

 

[ericbeaumont]

the correct location for leaving a full winter box of honey was above the brood-box. The way bees naturally store honey and then consume it through the winter would surely indicate that they want it above them.

No correct in beekeeping!

As JBM pointed out, a nadired super is easy prey for robbers and at this time of year, with zero flow and any sniff of stores liable to set off a mad frenzy, I certainly wouldn't nadir until the ivy starts, entrances are reduced and mouseguards added.

One benefit of nadiring is that the nest is high up under the crownboard in the warmest part of the hive, and presuming that the crownboard is sealed and insulated, bees will do well. Sure, they shift the nadired stores and pack it where they want it, but the end result in February is that the super is clean and can be removed.

Some say that a super on top will result in lost heat from the nest below, but unless DerekM (a thermodynamicist beekeeper) comes along I'm going to guess that the full combs retain some heat and reduce the comparative effect of a human sleeping in a cathedral when a bungalow would be warmer.

I've done all sorts of overwintering, by accident or design, from a single brood that wasn't fed to whole apiaries on double broods with QXs and plenty of supers on top (that was last winter when I was ill; all came out strong, including me).

Upshot is that a setup is best chosen on the basis of thermal efficiency, with plenty of clean winter bees and sufficient stores. The first two are paramount and the last can be adjusted in spring with fondant, but how you go about it is up to you and not the book.

 

[fiat500bee]

If bees are going to move any nadired stores upwards isn't that creating unnecessary work for them? They've already carted it to the top once.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If bees are going to move any nadired stores upwards isn't that creating unnecessary work for them? They've already carted it to the top once.

Yes
But they need their stores around the brood so its a handy device to get them to put it where they should be if you have uncapped honey you can't do anything with.
Lots of people are reporting (elsewhere, not on this forum) that they intend to leave a whole super of capped stores under. The reasoning is that the brood will stay warm up top and the bees will pop down as and when they need to to get food. They don't understand how a winter cluster behaves if they think that will work

 

[fiat500bee]

But they need their stores around the brood so its a handy device to get them to put it where they should be if you have uncapped honey you can't do anything with.

I'm finding this confusing. Please correct me.

Would the ideal situation be stores in the same box as the winter cluster and located around it with a lot of those stores at the top?

So any uncapped honey previously in a supered box should be placed under the brood...now?

If you have a box made up entirely of stores that you want to leave for the winter bees, will it be inaccessible to them if it is left in that box above the brood, even without excluder?

What to do to ensure space in the right location in the hive if you have reasonable certainty that your bees wil have access to late-season nectar when the frames may by then have been (and I hate to use this word ) "backfilled" by this returned honey and possibly by additional feeding?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm finding this confusing. Please correct me.

Would the ideal situation be stores in the same box as the winter cluster and located around it with a lot of those stores at the top?

So any uncapped honey previously in a supered box should be placed under the brood...now?

If you have a box made up entirely of stores that you want to leave for the winter bees, will it be inaccessible to them if it is left in that box above the brood, even without excluder?

What to do to ensure space in the right location in the hive if you have reasonable certainty that your bees wil have access to late-season nectar when the frames may by then have been (and I hate to use this word ) "backfilled" by this returned honey and possibly by additional feeding?

My ideal for my bees is stores in the brood box.
I have 14x12 so plenty big enough
Plenty of people run Nationals and have no problem overwintering in one box
40lb of stores is 7/8 frames and remember the bees live amongst the stores over winter.
If you have brood and a half then your brood box is one and a half boxes. One box simply split into two.
As for gauging space just weigh the hive at the end of September... ish. Top up with syrup or their own honey if you must.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm finding this confusing. Please correct me.

Would the ideal situation be stores in the same box as the winter cluster and located around it with a lot of those stores at the top?

So any uncapped honey previously in a supered box should be placed under the brood...now?

Yes - if you pulled a brood frame of a hive orientated 'cold' way in early spring or late autumn you will find the bees have arranged things so that the brood nest/cluster is right up against the entrance with the stores packed to the rear and top of the box.
With 'warm' way you will find the frames near the entrance will have brood and stores up top whilst the rearmost frames will have nothing but stores in

 

[fiat500bee]

Yes - if you pulled a brood frame of a hive orientated 'cold' way in early spring or late autumn you will find the bees have arranged things so that the brood nest/cluster is right up against the entrance with the stores pached to the rear and top of the box.
With 'warm' way you will find the frames near the entrance will have brood and stores up top whilst the rearmost frames will have nothing but stores in

Thank-you...that was the bit I was least unsure about but now I am certain.

But the subsequent statements?/questions I gave......do I take it on those we're back to the "there's no right answers in beekeeping" scenario (which some beekeepers who say it as a truth seems to sometimes forget they have previously said).

PS. I do like the fact that you give definitive answers where one is available.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would the ideal situation be stores in the same box as the winter cluster and located around it with a lot of those stores at the top?

Yes

So any uncapped honey previously in a supered box should be placed under the brood...now?

well, before very long

If you have a box made up entirely of stores that you want to leave for the winter bees, will it be inaccessible to them if it is left in that box above the brood, even without excluder?

No - they'll get to it in good time, it's put in the right place - but never with a QX in place

What to do to ensure space in the right location in the hive if you have reasonable certainty that your bees wil have access to late-season nectar when the frames may by then have been (and I hate to use this word ) "backfilled" by this returned honey and possibly by additional feeding?

That is when, if you are uncertain a nadired empty shallow affords them the luxury of shifting down a bit to make room for rearrangement.

Basically, once you've harvested, and are ready to feed, you should have the nadired shallows in place (either empty or with the frames of unripe/uncapped/dregs of honey in) and as long as the beekeeper stops fiddling around, the bees will sort themselves out

"there's no right answers in beekeeping" scenario (which some beekeepers who say it as a truth seems to sometimes forget they have previously said).

That is usually the statement you hear when someone has been proven wrong or has been called out on a ridiculous statement but refuses to admit the fact

 

[fiat500bee]

Yes

well, before very long

No - they'll get to it in good time, it's put in the right place - but never with a QX in place

That is when, if you are uncertain a nadired empty shallow affords them the luxury of shifting down a bit to make room for rearrangement.

Basically, once you've harvested, and are ready to feed, you should have the nadired shallows in place (either empty or with the frames of unripe/uncapped/dregs of honey in) and as long as the beekeeper stops fiddling around, the bees will sort themselves out


That is usually the statement you hear when someone has been proven wrong or has been called out on a ridiculous statement but refuses to admit the fact

That is a suberb response, thank-you. You've filtered out the scraps of wax and propolis in my mind and left me with just the honey.