Laying workers but no room at the inn

[rpricedavies]

In "apiary A" we have 3 hives. Two are fine, but one has succumbed to laying workers. As its fairly late in our season for getting a Q mated, we don't fancy our chances with adding brood to the problem hive, so were planning to shake the bees out but there's very little space in the other hives. We have access to two more apiaries, "apiary B" is quite close (~2 miles) with room for extra bees in 2 hives and "apiary C" is further afield (~13 miles) but more difficult to work with and less spare room in hives.
What do you think is our best option?
Thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In the words of the skywegian troglodyte - buy a mated queen

 

[Plenty of honey]

In "apiary A" we have 3 hives. Two are fine, but one has succumbed to laying workers. As its fairly late in our season for getting a Q mated, we don't fancy our chances with adding brood to the problem hive, so were planning to shake the bees out but there's very little space in the other hives. We have access to two more apiaries, "apiary B" is quite close (~2 miles) with room for extra bees in 2 hives and "apiary C" is further afield (~13 miles) but more difficult to work with and less spare room in hives.
What do you think is our best option?
Thanks

Laying workers is one of the most difficult things to correct. If you read up on this, its the best advice.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

You really need to add brood as the presence of brood surpresses the laying workers enough in order that they may make a queen cell on the second or third time, as you add some eggs or larvae in the same frame.

Theres many methods, like shaking out the brood sections 200 meters away, but I've discussed this at great length with a friend and if a queen with a clipped wing can manage to fly, you will find the laying workers will mostly do the same. so you need to attack this problem at a different angle.
You could introduce a mated queen under a push in cage and move her around a few time, under the cage. This works but is very time consuming.
Best of luck!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Theres many methods, like shaking out the brood sections 200 meters away, but I've discussed this at great length with a friend and if a queen with a clipped wing can manage to fly, you will find the laying workers will mostly do the same.

Of course laying workers can fly - why shouldn't they? this myth drags on and on about laying workers not being able to fly they're worker bees which like all workers can lay eggs, they don't undertake any physical changes when they do - absolutely no point shaking out the frames then putting them all back in a hive that remains in the same location - as all the bees (except, maybe, on the odd occasion the dud queen was still in there lurking around) will return to the home hive they were chucked out of, a shake out only works if you dump them all out then remove the hive - the bees have to beg their way into other hives where the layers will either be denied entry or, on settling into a queenright colony with strong queen pheremones will quit their laying habits once more and any that are laid (and hives always have workers in that lay) the egg police will sort it. and it doesn't have to be 200 yards away (or metres)

 

[nantmoel]

In the words of the skywegian troglodyte - buy a mated queen

 

[Plenty of honey]

Of course laying workers can fly - why shouldn't they? this myth drags on and on about laying workers not being able to fly they're worker bees which like all workers can lay eggs, they don't undertake any physical changes when they do - absolutely no point shaking out the frames then putting them all back in a hive that remains in the same location - as all the bees (except, maybe, on the odd occasion the dud queen was still in there lurking around) will return to the home hive they were chucked out of, a shake out only works if you dump them all out then remove the hive - the bees have to beg their way into other hives where the layers will either be denied entry or, on settling into a queenright colony with strong queen pheremones will quit their laying habits once more and any that are laid (and hives always have workers in that lay) the egg police will sort it. and it doesn't have to be 200 yards away (or metres)

 

[rpricedavies]

Thanks all for the input

 

[beeno]

Thanks all for the input

I hope you got the message don't buy a mated queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

someone's got their wires crossed - buying a mated queen is a valid option

 

[Ely]

In the words of the skywegian troglodyte - buy a mated queen

I agree. A colony is a valuable asset. Order a queen. Next year's honey crop from this colony should more than pay for it, conditions allowing. Throwing money down the drain otherwise

 

[MerryBee]

someone's got their wires crossed - buying a mated queen is a valid option

Maybe I am missing something, but how do you get a colony of laying workers to accept a mated queen?

 

[Eyeman]

Dave Cushman's site says

There is a difficulty in re-queening colonies with laying workers, which can be overcome by removing the laying workers and allowing the colony to be totally devoid of egg layers for a time.

The simple cure for laying workers... Move the entire hive into the middle of the field or a hundred yards or so from it's original position. Shake or brush all bees from every comb and all hive parts on to the ground. All the workers look alike whether 'normal' or 'laying', so you must not miss one as it could be a laying one. Replace the hive back on it's original stand for the flying bees to return to. The laying workers will not return to the hive, at least that is the traditional wisdom. However it has been discovered that many laying workers are able to fly normally. Notwithstanding that... In those few cases that I have observed 'it worked', exactly what the mechanism was is open to debate.

The period that you need to leave the bees queenless before they will accept a cell or another queen depends to an extent on how long they have been without a queen, but there are no female eggs in the hive at this stage or any larva that are young enough to become emergency queens. So a few hours to a day should be enough, but be aware that some workers may be already on the point of turning into 'layers' and any prolonged period without a queen could result in all your hard work going to waste.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm afraid that in this case Dave Cushman is wrong - totally pointless doing all that as all laying workers can fly!!!

Just introduce as per normal, taking plenty of time before uncovering the candy plug for the bees to release her. It also helps to put a frame or two of brood in the hive over the period of a week or so prior to introduction.

The bees know they are queenless and want to rectify the situation.

 

[fatshark]

I don't think all laying workers can fly ... some certainly can, but the rate of laying before and after shaking out a colony is often much reduced. I know, because I've checked.

Are laying workers all mature bees that have gone on orientation flights? I'm not sure.

Requeening LW colonies can be very tricky. I like to know they're likely to accept a new queen before I try. I shake them out 50-100 meters away and leave a box with drawn comb and a marked frame containing eggs and young larvae (not the original drone-filled combs!). Open brood is important here to release the pheromones to suppress LW activity. I then see if they draw QC's on the marked frame. They often do, despite ignoring a similar frame put in before shaking them out. You can monitor LW's by looking at the unmarked frames for eggs.

If they draw QC's (check at 2 days) I then go ahead and re-queen.

An alternative solution recently suggested is to move the LW colony some distance away, place a new hive on the old location and let the foragers return to the old site. The LW's will stay in the old hive. After a fortnight they can be sacrificed. The new hive with the old foragers on the old site can be re-queened. I've not tried this ...

 

[Eyeman]

Best way to deal with laying workers is to be proactive with a test frame!
If I see no BIAS 3-4 weeks after emergence of a new queen (when waiting for a new queen to come in to lay) a test frame goes in. Most of the time she will be laying at the next inspection but got 2 surprises this season with QC's on the test frame.