Laying worker

[farbee]

Does mutlipe eggs in many cells definitely mean a laying worker is present?

 

[REDWOOD]

If she is a new queen she can take a while to get it sorted, the bees will move the eggs and straighten things out but keep a close eye on her. Do you have a queen in your hive ?

 

[farbee]

Thanks for your quick reply Redwood. I guess from your question that it is not always a definite laying worker.

Some more information about my reason for asking my question.

I am looking after a few hives and nucs for a friend who is away for a couple of weeks.

Looked at one weak nuc (about 2 frames of bees) with a new unmated queen she raised and introduced 4 weeks ago.

There is no brood but they have stores.

So she is just getting going but I could not find a queen (although I could have missed her as it started to rain so closed them up quickly).

 

[Hawklord]

If in doubt give them a frame of eggs.

 

[oliver90owner]

Multiple eggs in many cells means an awful lot of eggs for one laying worker. Think here the queen is fed by attendants fairly continuously to lay typically 1500 per day (2/3 of a frame side, if a deep National). Bear in mind this could be three days laying, mind. But a laying worker would start relatively slowly?

So the upshot is that their are likely numerous laying workers for your scenario - but all started laying at exactly the same time? Probably not! So more likely a new laying queen with either no prepared space to lay or not yet got the hang of things.

Next is position of eggs in cells. Queenie will get nearly all of them at the bottom of the cell; laying workers probably won't manage that.

Probably most important is laying pattern - if in a fairly compact laying pattern ( like pretty well solid), it is probably a queen. Laying workers generally lay all over the place, missing lots of cells and not in anything like a compact pattern. Queens lay on consecutive frames too, not dotted around on several frames.

So back to you. Have a proper look and make a decision.

There is usually a queen present. Losing a queen on a mating flight is not such a common happening.

I would guess and say it is a queen. But only a simple guess on the information supplied.

You need to think a bit more of what to expect before inspecting if you are going through colonies in that situation. Like time of inspection, aims of inspection. Just looking for a queen is a waste of time and effort as well as possibly disruptive to the colony. That is when a virgin or not-yet-laying queen can easily be lost as she may be flighty and also in an unexpected location within the hive.

Only a very few more days and the brood will be capped, so that may well give an indication? A simple decision initially - drone or worker brood - might be the obvious solution to the initial posting. It may not, of course, but by then the laying pattern will almost certainly be obvious.

Keep it simple is my advice.

 

[Finman]

If she is a new queen she can take a while to get it sorted, the bees will move the eggs and straighten things out but keep a close eye on her. Do you have a queen in your hive ?

it is very rare that new queen makes more than one egg into a cell. Laying workers make several eggs

 

[Michael Palmer]

it is very rare that new queen makes more than one egg into a cell. Laying workers make several eggs

I have to disagree. It isn't all that rare. I find multiple queen laid eggs in cells in a few circumstances. One where the new queen doesn't have the support staff to expand the brood nest and re-lays in the same cells. Once enough brood emerges, and the bees can cover more brood comb, the behavior disappears.

Then, there's the way I re-queen. I use push-in cages, leaving the queen under the cage for 4 days. Talk about multiple eggs in cells. Sometimes there are piles of eggs in single cells.

And what about those queens who regularly deposit multiple eggs in single cells. I had a breeder last summer who did it to a degree that made grafting difficult. Almost every cell had multiples. Two eggs and a larva. Two larvae and an egg. This all with a populous colony with plenty of empty comb space for the queen. What is really different…the multiples were of varying ages. An egg and a day old larva and a two day old larva. The egg and the two day old had to be teased from the cell with my grafting tool and the day old grafted to queen cup. The daughter queens didn't deposit multiples.

I never realized how many cells actually have multiple eggs/larvae, until I began taking digital photographs with my Nikon. Enlarging them…something that wasn't practical with prints…shows the multiples.

This was the first photo where I noticed it. Clear enough to see….

 

[Finman]

.
Ok., still I am quite quick to change the queen if laying is not normal.

 

[farbee]

Thanks for replies. As there is a limited amount of workers I think it could be due to that and queen just getting going and over laying an already laid area.

Unfortunately the apiary is a fair distance away so I will leave until next week and see what the brood looks like.

If brood looks Ok will leave alone.

If it looks like laying worker should I shake out about 100 meters away? As it is small colony I don't think it is worth messing about with.

 

[TOBY-3652]

I have just sorted a drone layer out today.. I couldn't find the queen so took 50 metres and threw the lot in the dike. took everything away before I did it. and within 10 mins they had all begged there way in to the 2 colonies either side of it. this was a colonie with 2 supers on that had swarmed and the new queen was a dud.. did the same to one last week

 

[oliver90owner]

If it looks like laying worker should I shake out about 100 meters away?

Erm. Won't the beekeeper be back in about a week? I would not be interfering that much.

'Looks like' may not be actual.

 

[Finman]

.
Laying worker derives from "desperately queenless" feeling of the hive. Moving hive 100 yards bases on the old fairytale about worker queen.
Worker layers are hundreds and more will arise if needed

When you give to the hive a larva comb, bees have opportunity to rear real queen. That normalizes hive's feeling and workers stop laying.

.

 

[kazmcc]

When you give to the hive a larva comb, bees have opportunity to rear real queen. That normalizes hive's feeling and workers stop laying.

I was going to ask if introducing a frame of eggs and letting them rear a queen would stop the workers from laying. Didn't I read on here that the laying worker/s would be a threat to a new queen? Would that be to an introduced, mated queen? Or would a queen they had reared be fine?

I'm going from memory, which is sketchy at best

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It's getting them to rear their own queen is one of the problems - they see eggs in the cells and hey! why do we need to make a new queen?

 

[farbee]

Good point Oliver. I guess another week or so will not matter. Will leave for her to decide what she wants. Pretty sure she wouldn't mind but non the less.

 

[Finman]

Good point Oliver. I guess another week or so will not matter. Will leave for her to decide what she wants. Pretty sure she wouldn't mind but non the less.

If there are laying workers, there is no she.
Put that larva frame from another hive and look what happens.

 

[farbee]

If there are laying workers, there is no she.
Put that larva frame from another hive and look what happens.

She as in the beekeeper who 'owns them' (not the queen). When she returns from her holiday she can decide what to do.

 

[farbee]

Just thought I would give an up date.

All brood was drone. Let my friend know and she's back to sort out now but a shake out would seem the best option.

Thanks for help.