Is there a need to insulate outside the hive?

[BILL.HEARD]

No insulation here in Devon, however i'm not on Dartmoor/Exmoor, I keep a Miller type feeder on most hives AYR, thats all they have, plenty of dead air space above them and nice and dry.

 

[Skyhook]

I believe You are right, that it would survive..
But at the other hand my mistake is I wanted to overwinter relatively weak colony.

I've overwintered weak colonies successfully in insulated hives, with surplus frames removed and the space filled with kingspan. Insulated dummy board on their own don't do a lot, as convection currents can go around them.


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[Goran]

Thanks all for sharing ideas.
By the way I have also Miller type feeders ( common here)..

 

[ichbinpaul]

You need to match the insulation level to the power input

Is there an average Watts per Kilo of bees figure?

 

[itma]

is there a need to insulate the brood chamber outside i,e -with kingspan for example or is this overkill ...

Well, a few weeks ago I took this rather small, ridiculously late swarm (not from my hives) and put them in a poly nuc...

... and spent this wet afternoon making a Celotex cowl to fit over (and damn near hide) the nuc and its extra insulation/feeder eke.

This lot really need the odds tilted a long way in their favour, so I'm doing as best I can.

But really, if you think your bees would be better with more insulation, the first thing to do is to buy a poly hive, not a wooden one!

 

[user 6228]

Is there an average Watts per Kilo of bees figure?

Yes no... It varies. Best figures I've seen (research based) say a peak of around 20w per kilo.

 

[ichbinpaul]

Yes no... It varies. Best figures I've seen (research based) say a peak of around 20w per kilo.

Wow that brings it home! so one very cold month could consume in excess of 13kw hours per kilo of bees, or is this peek only durring brood incubation?.

 

[user 6228]

Wow that brings it home! so one very cold month could consume in excess of 13kw hours per kilo of bees, or is this peek only durring brood incubation?.

This specific figure is from research on Broodless colonies in temperature controlled conditions.

Research on bees is done usually in fixed temperature (lab)or quasi fixed temperature conditions ( uninsulated wooden hives ) . Where as the simulation models sometimes assume perfect insulation.

 

[Swarm]

is there a need to insulate the brood chamber outside i,e -with kingspan for example or is this overkill . I have 50mm of kingspan above crownboard is this enougth for wet and windy wales ....

many thanks for your thoughts in advance

People getting carried away here. Is there a need? No there is not.

 

[user 6228]

People getting carried away here. Is there a need? No there is not.

carried away?... Wishing to keep animal with a key habitat characteristic at the level of its average wild habitat, is not getting carried away.

I have very strong opinions about deliberately and knowingly keeping a small animals at a level of 4 times the heat loss it would experience in the wild and the justifying it with "we have always done it this way" ," they survive don't they", "I get great productivity".

However I prefer to discuss measurable quantifiable facts. So please elucidate the controlled studies you or others have done to prove your bees are better off with out significant insulation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

carried away?... Wishing to keep animal with a key habitat characteristic at the level of its average wild habitat, is not getting carried away.

I have very strong opinions about deliberately and knowingly keeping a small animals at a level of 4 times the heat loss it would experience in the wild and the justifying it with "we have always done it this way" ," they survive don't they", "I get great productivity".

However I prefer to discuss measurable quantifiable facts. So please elucidate the controlled studies you or others have done to prove your bees are better off with out significant insulation.

C'mon Derek you do get a bit carried away but as you've said yourself - you're not the beekeper - thermodynamics is what floats your boat.
Most of us just want to keep bees not spend our time experimenting,quantifying ad nauseum. as for better off -I prefer to use the word different. mine went flying into the spring with only top insulation in fact if they'd done any better i would have had problems I think.
Most of the world are happy to use wooden hive and without any form of insulation.

 

[Swarm]

Not all feral colonies nest in trees, photographic evidence has shown bees setting up residence in all manner of places, under eaves for example and others totally out in the open.
You have absolutely no right to claim people using wooden hives are keeping their bees in inadequate conditions, it's just your opinion.

Again, the question was "is there a need?"
No there is not.

 

[pargyle]

carried away?... Wishing to keep animal with a key habitat characteristic at the level of its average wild habitat, is not getting carried away.

+1 ... Plain common sense says it is better to give them a space which in which they can easily maintain the colony temperature that they desire by removing, as much as possible, the influences of external air temperature ... and IMHO reducing the influence of fluctuations in external air temperature which, in winter, in the UK, can be very significant.

I'm impressed, so far, with my very well insulated hive - insomuch as the bees are managing to maintain a steady colony temperature of about 21 degrees which is far above the ambient temperature outside the hive.

I will be interested to see what happens when the ambient air temperature really starts to drop.

I don't have a control hive to measure against but it makes good sense to me and it can't do any harm. Those people with polyhives set me off on this path and they seem to be happy with their performance ...

 

[itma]

I'm not sure anyone has said there is a *NEED* ...
Plenty of us think an average colony of bees does better with some better insulation than a plain wooden hive. But bees can 'get by' in some very ratty hives.

Any 'need' is in the beek's mind - needing to do ever better.
And some beeks are happy to 'get by', if they can, without doing anything, or spending a single penny, beyond what is strictly necessary. Hence those ratty old hives ...


But my mini-swarm will need a lot of help to have a chance to survive the coming winter. A poly nuc, and a pile of extra insulation, will hopefully help their chances. Do they need it to survive? Dunno. But they have it now.
A far from typical situation. A far from typical hive setup.

 

[user 6228]

Not all feral colonies nest in trees, photographic evidence has shown bees setting up residence in all manner of places, under eaves for example and others totally out in the open.
You have absolutely no right to claim people using wooden hives are keeping their bees in inadequate conditions, it's just your opinion.

Again, the question was "is there a need?"
No there is not.

Did those feral colonies have any choice?
I didn't say on this occasion that they are inadequate... just that I have strong opinions... I intend to let facts speak for themselves.
until then perhaps you should act on the "precautionary principle" that until it can be proved that to have no insulation does not harm, you should insulate to the level of the habitat that they evolved with.
At the moment the balance of scientific evidence, (according to my own literature review) shows that comprehensive insulation is beneficial to a smaller colonies' growth and survival.

 

[Swarm]

Derek,
The OP asked if there was a 'need' and he already has top insulation, are you saying that he 'needs' an insulated shell? I don't think he does and there are plenty of beekeepers using wooden hives with thriving, healthy colonies, not wretched, pathetic creatures barely clinging to existence.
The habitat they evolved with is covered in the other thread where you go on about the same theme.

 

[user 6228]

Derek,
The OP asked if there was a 'need' and he already has top insulation, are you saying that he 'needs' an insulated shell? I don't think he does and there are plenty of beekeepers using wooden hives with thriving, healthy colonies, not wretched, pathetic creatures barely clinging to existence.
The habitat they evolved with is covered in the other thread where you go on about the same theme.

Yes there is a need, because you cant foretell the future for any particular colony, you should do your best to give your animals the best survival margin. You cant give them the best survival margin in a conventional hive without an insulating shell. The cost is less than £20 . I say the burden of proof is the other way round.

 

[user 6228]

Derek,
xxxxxxyyyyyyyyyzzzzzzz

 

[ichbinpaul]

You have absolutely no right to claim people using wooden hives are keeping their bees in inadequate conditions, it's just your opinion.

Again, the question was "is there a need?"
No there is not.

I'm not saying you are wrong Swarm, but strong words! surely anyone has the right to say that all standard beekeeping is wrong if they wish, I'm sure plenty do, even the bees throw the book out occasionally!, one thing I remember a tree boff telling a farmer about the bog oak that he was removing from a field that broke his plough( it took a week and two giant caterpillars to remove half of it) he said this oak tree would have been nearly three times the height of the biggest oaks here today, and that most trees as ancient as this were huge for whatever reason, I ponder and think did they(bees) have not only a more tropical environment here but also thicker insulation in tree holes! and greater protection from freezing winds compared to the relatively tree barren landscape today? just a thought

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes there is a need, because you cant foretell the future for any particular colony, you should do your best to give your animals the best survival margin. You cant give them the best survival margin in a conventional hive without an insulating shell. The cost is less than £20 . I say the burden of proof is the other way round.

I'm afraid you are beginning to blather a bit now DM - it has become an onsession and if you're not careful it will begin to gall