Is it OK to put a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest?

[Amari]

Heather and Dr Stitson in the current thread 'Spreading the brood' mention putting a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest as a way of spreading the brood and/or getting brood-foundation drawn quickly. However I well remember John Cossburn, Hants Agri College County Bee lecturer, teaching in 1972 that this procedure invites swarming - Q cells may be built on the Q negative side - so I have never tried it.
Anyone experienced this?

 

[drstitson]

read elsewhere in the thread - typically done in a busy colony late summer/early autumn.

 

[Amari]

read elsewhere in the thread - typically done in a busy colony late summer/early autumn.

Yes, I have read all the posts.
What I really meant was: Has anyone experienced swarming due to placing foundation in the middle of the brood?

 

[peteinwilts]

Yes, I have read all the posts.
What I really meant was: Has anyone experienced swarming due to placing foundation in the middle of the brood?

difficult to prove whether this behaviour actually causes swarming. (i.e. were they going to produce QC's anyway)

 

[beeno]

Yes, I have read all the posts.
What I really meant was: Has anyone experienced swarming due to placing foundation in the middle of the brood?

Hi all,
The reason I have on occasion done this is to prevent swarming and then it is drawn foundation or if I am short of drawn foundation and want it drawn. I can only assume that the above scenario happened because they were already in swarming mode due to the fact that the queen had run out of laying space!

 

[fiftyjon]

Yes, I have read all the posts.
What I really meant was: Has anyone experienced swarming due to placing foundation in the middle of the brood?

No

 

[drstitson]

same as beeno - presume foundation introduced in desperation when colony already in swarm mode = nice place for QCs.
i'd imagine a strong colony with strong queen should be able to have foundation drawn and laid (on both sides) promptly, provided no other indicators/stimulators of swarming.

what about checker boarding or adding extra boxes?

 

[Heather]

I think I said I would never put a frame of foundation, or even blank drawn frame anywhere between brood. Can get chilled brood.
It is possible to move the brood frames to allow the fuller frames to go to the edges of the brood area bringing in less full brood frames. Big difference.

Swarm mode.. artificial swarm. Grab those queen cells too. leave one. Old queen to new site.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've done this in September for the last two years to increase the number of winter bees.
Never considered swarming this late.

 

[richardbees]

Erica, really?

maybe I'm having a senior moment but do you mean you put a frame of blank comb/foundation in the middle of your brood box in September?

richard

 

[Swarm]

Yes, usually during autumn feed for a beautifully drawn comb.

 

[Norfolk]

.......It is possible to move the brood frames to allow the fuller frames to go to the edges of the brood area bringing in less full brood frames. Big difference........

I agree with Heather, I wouldn't split the colony with an undrawn frame.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Erica, really?

maybe I'm having a senior moment but do you mean you put a frame of blank comb/foundation in the middle of your brood box in September?

richard

Yes

 

[Goran]

Heather and Dr Stitson in the current thread 'Spreading the brood' mention putting a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest as a way of spreading the brood and/or getting brood-foundation drawn quickly. However I well remember John Cossburn, Hants Agri College County Bee lecturer, teaching in 1972 that this procedure invites swarming - Q cells may be built on the Q negative side - so I have never tried it.
Anyone experienced this?

I did this in one strong colony, not much to get frame with brood more to try keep them more busy with building, to don't think on swarming ( I had to spread brood through three boxes of lang). They do start the queen cells, when asked what to do, said nothing as they are emergency cells. And that was, they teared down when queen overcome the barrier of foundation ( which is built and laid) and again regain the control. Later I did on few others the same thing, as I recall maybe one I checked and saw also few q cells.
Well, later when I was curious about that and read about it, I found that some use something similar ( as routine) to get supersede q cells which claimed high quality ( even than swarm cells).

So I am undecided, are these qcells I had emergency ( lower quality) or supersede ( higher quality and shame I didn't try to save and use)?

 

[REDWOOD]

It's also a way of working the old combs to the outside and eventually out of the hive
If you have a full hive early in the season and its too cold to put a super on a frame of foundation will give the bees something to do rather than build swarm cells
sometimes a brood box can become packed with honey leaving little room for the queen to lay, bruising honey doesn't always get the bees to move it into supers so remove a frame or two and replace with comb or foundation, the frames of honey can be given back when needed

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes, I have read all the posts.
What I really meant was: Has anyone experienced swarming due to placing foundation in the middle of the brood?

Yes. However not normal if only ONE frame and the timing is right. Easy to do it too early or get it wrong, must be a vibrant developing colony, not already making cells,and bringing in good amounts of nectar or being fed. put TWO frame together and one side is then sufficiently isolated for the bees one that side to think they are queenless and respond accordingly. If you want to do two or more there MUST be enough bees to cover all the extra combs without isolating any of the brood, remembering that in late spring even, the nighttime temps can dip very low and clusters will contract.

This is an entirely different matter from late summer autumn foundation placement in the nest, as swarming is past and brood amounts are generally lower with plentiful bees to cover it all.

Bottom line is that you should not do it if you are so inexperienced you cannot read the hive signs to time it properly. Done wrongly, too early, when the colony is not big enough and you can set them back quite seriously.

 

[drstitson]

"I found that some use something similar ( as routine) to get supersede q cells which claimed high quality"

presumably relying on the reduction in pheromones, in absence of other swarm stimuli, to fool colony into thinking queen is failing.

 

[Norfolk]

Yes. However not normal if only ONE frame and the timing is right. Easy to do it too early or get it wrong, must be a vibrant developing colony, not already making cells,and bringing in good amounts of nectar or being fed. put TWO frame together and one side is then sufficiently isolated for the bees one that side to think they are queenless and respond accordingly. If you want to do two or more there MUST be enough bees to cover all the extra combs without isolating any of the brood, remembering that in late spring even, the nighttime temps can dip very low and clusters will contract.

This is an entirely different matter from late summer autumn foundation placement in the nest, as swarming is past and brood amounts are generally lower with plentiful bees to cover it all.

Bottom line is that you should not do it if you are so inexperienced you cannot read the hive signs to time it properly. Done wrongly, too early, when the colony is not big enough and you can set them back quite seriously.

That's a good answer, wish I'd said it

 

[pargyle]

That's a good answer, wish I'd said it

And me ... the voice of real beekeeping experience ... always good value from ITLD and always put nicely.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I took over the management of a 500 colony operation back in June of 1982. The previous beekeeper had spread the broodnest in May, by placing a frame of foundation in the middle of the broodnest. In many of the colonies, the queen wound up stuck on one side of the broodnest, and refused to cross over to the brood combs on the far side of the foundation. Even those that had drawn the foundation into comb behaved in the same way.