Insulation.

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Very interesting reading Hivemaker, thanks
I got a bit lost half way through so skipped to the summary.

I've studied this paper at length on a number of occasions. Beware of taking its summary literally without reading the rest of the paper. The summary can be easily taken out of context and the research it's self is flawed in its treatment of insulation. The flaws start with the absence of measurement of the insulation and go on from there.
 
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a lot more stores left in a polyhive in spring than a similar size cedar hive starting out at the same weight of strores in autumn,

In Finland, my experience, is that uninsulated wooden boxes consume 50% more food. I have only 20 years experience about uninsulated boxes and 26 yeard with polyhives-

I had too boxes, where I hit with nails 10 mm insulating board on the wooden box. When board worked as moisture barrier and boxes started to rotten quickly. But I still use them as supers. I made them 1966.

I bough first polyhives 1987. I still use them too.


Another evidence, B

If bees consume more in warm, why they starve more during cold winter?

WE get every years evidenciens that during cold winter bees consume more and after warm winter there too much winter food left in May.

Evidence C

It is well documented in laboratory, how a bee cluster consumes food in different out temperatures. In cold air
-10C, the respiration moisture condensates inside the hive and forms snow like frost.


Evidence C


When I have had small colonies in Finland, 2-3 seam of bees, they do not survive over winter normally. They live their time and then they are full of feces.
Their life is much more difficult than life in normal size cluster.
The bigger the cluster, the better bees survive over winter.

I can get tiny colonies alive over winter with electrict heating. A small colony surrounds teh 3W heater.
But it cannot start brooding in spring when bees are only in one seam.

I have seen too in my trials, that when winter was very cold from very beginning, I put 6 heaters to the smallest hives. One died but others 5 were in very good condition. They have lost bees clearly less than bigger clusters and after winter they really were in good shape.


Evidence F

Re-shaping of cluster

Short very cold spells are not so bad as long lasting cold periods (1-2 months).

A seam of bees retreats between combs during cold spell, and during mild weather the cluster expands and the cluster reshape itself and according the food.

If cold period is long, like 2 months, in many seams food will be finish and that seam will die. Bees cannot go through combs.

In bad winters even 3 seams may be dead after winter in good size cluster.
It is typical too that outer most seams, which have too few bees, they die.

What insulation helps is that the box interrior is warmer, and cluster can re shape itseld more easily than in cold box. It is easier to move near food.

- Too large room is cold too and insulation does not help in these cases.
Douple brood and half box only bees. But that is normal when the colony looses its bees for excaple for nosema.
 
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I've studied this paper at length on a number of occasions. . The flaws start with the absence of measurement of the insulation.

We need not measure those issues. All use insulated hives.

In Canada they use insulating wrappings.

And Canadians collect their hives to 4 hive groups that hives keep each others warm.

Here are advices about wintering in Canada y 1920

The original of this book is in
the Cornell University Library.

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924000962666/cu31924000962666_djvu.txt


TABLE OF CONTENTS.

Page.

Introduction 5

Strong Colonies of Young Bees 6

Wholesome S'tores in plenty 6

Protection from Cold 7

Wintering Outside 8

Wintering in the Cellar 9

Spring Management 12
 
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Mixed thoughts?

I can see that it is 2 months from winter feeding and now guys are preparing winter fondant feeding?

- thin ply walls, mesh floor, feeding hole let heat out from hive, fondant feeding during old year

- extremely insulated Kingspan, - polyhives, too much winter food in May


It is strange that these extreme illustrations exist on forum at same time. - and in Britain winter has not started.

I must go to change my winter tyres under the car .

at 9 a'lock out temp was -8C





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Mixed thoughts?

I can see that it is 2 months from winter feeding and now guys are preparing winter fondant feeding?

- thin ply walls, mesh floor, feeding hole let heat out from hive, fondant feeding during old year

- extremely insulated Kingspan, - polyhives, too much winter food in May


It is strange that these extreme illustrations exist on forum at same time. - and in Britain winter has not started.

I must go to change my winter tyres under the car .

at 9 a'lock out temp was -8C


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You shouldnt confuse temperature with heat.

higher temperatures dont neccessarily imply lower heat loss.
e.g. high winds and rainfall can remove heat more effectively than stiller colder air or snow.
In the UK shelter for hives from the wind and rain should be high up the list.
 
the word "insulated" or "packed" without a quantitive measure is meaningless in the context of a scientific experiment or comparititive study

Scientific experiments? Well. These things have been known so long that we do not need any more Scientic measurements.

Guys in Finland are doing their own measurements just like you, but it has no practical value, neither scientific. Some have online monitoring to computers, but it has no meaning.


As you see from Hivemaker's article, the researches are 70 -100 years old, and England has not made any progress in bee hive insulation during that time.

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In the UK shelter for hives from the wind and rain should be high up the list.

Yes, that is very true.

I am just changing winter tyres to car. Temp is -5C. That is good weather, because there is no wind. +5 and good wind is much more colder to work outside.

Folks have measured heat and temp 100 years, but what is wind affection to hives and food consumption, I do not remember those studies.

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Scientific experiments? Well. These things have been known so long that we do not need any more Scientic measurements.

Guys in Finland are doing their own measurements just like you, but it has no practical value, neither scientific. Some have online monitoring to computers, but it has no meaning.


As you see from Hivemaker's article, the researches are 70 -100 years old, and England has not made any progress in bee hive insulation during that time.

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Research using quantitive levels of insulation has rarely been done. Research against a realistic baseline of insulation has never been done as far as I know.
 
Research using quantitive levels of insulation has rarely been done. Research against a realistic baseline of insulation has never been done as far as I know.

Proplem is yours, if you do not know. Not beekeepers. You cannot even imagine what kind of apparatus guys have made here. - And Germans are mad to research everything.

Relistic baseline, - what is that?

Our realitys is that on our beekeeping area out temps go to -30C every year. Sometimes it -40C.

I do not know, what you are doing there, but our guys here, who have 1000-3000 hives, they really must know what they do, and they have known long time.
Beekeeping is not so difficult that this is "unknown area".

You have 3 years experience and those guys have 30 years. Some respect needed what other guys do for their living.

Yes, I know what is difference between quantitative and qualitative research, but main question is what is the problem what you are resolving?

We can research what ever, but I appreciate problem solving researching.


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Here is just one guy on Finnish beekeeping forum. He measures temps in 8 hives now.

He writes that out temp is -3C .
In the hive sensor is in the the middle of upper douple brood, 10 cm deep.

The sensor temps are mostly about 7-10C, because cluster is in the lower box. So, that is the temp above cluster. We might say that it is a temp against inner cover.

in two cases sensor is inside the cluster, temp 21-27C.

Who knows, what he is going to do with that knowledge.

http://www.mehilaiskeskustelu.fi/keskustelu/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=618

Place Tampere

Lämpöjen mittaus 24.11.2013
Ulkolämpö -3 astetta = OUT
Pesien lämmöt (astetta C) anturit n.10cm ylälaatikon keskimmäisen kehän päältä alas.

Temp...Hive #
20,6C ...City 1
7,7C ...City 2
7 C ...Finca 1
7C ...Finca 2
8 C ...Finca 3
12 C ...Finca 4
27C ... Keräys_jaoke
10,5 C ...Finca 8

Kuvassa mittaus laitteet:
 
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Reading down (Google translate...), he seems to be economising on hive design, which is v sensible. But that hive looks uninsulated to my newbie eye. Is that right?

That forum clearly needs "englantilainen" to stir it up :)
 
Reading down (Google translate...), he seems to be economising on hive design, which is v sensible. But that hive looks uninsulated to my newbie eye. Is that right?

That forum clearly needs "englantilainen" to stir it up :)

ttltb: Well spotted ...if he has a cluster about 1Kg then it is as insulated as a Thornes national with the feed holes blocked but no additional insulation.

finman: I'm looking at bee nests , that may have bees in them, not bees that are in nests.
 
ttltb: Well spotted ...if he has a cluster about 1Kg then it is as insulated as a Thornes national with the feed holes blocked but no additional insulation.

finman: I'm looking at bee nests , that may have bees in them, not bees that are in nests.

Guys. You have there vivid imagination. You see too much in the picture. Who knows what is that pile.

This guys have nursed bees propably 60 years. He was the to make commercial polystyrene hives allready in 40 years ago, but product was not succesfull.

In this video that guy has polyhives.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyRqNCaVJIg"]Kevat_Hapotus_leffa - YouTube[/ame]

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ttltb: Well spotted ...if he has a cluster about 1Kg then it is as insulated as a Thornes national with the feed holes blocked but no additional insulation.

finman: I'm looking at bee nests , that may have bees in them, not bees that are in nests.

Guys. You have there fast imagination.

That guy has nursed bees propably 60 years. He was the to make commercial polystyrene hives allready in 40 years ago, but product was not succesfull.

Here he has polyhive

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyRqNCaVJIg"]Kevat_Hapotus_leffa - YouTube[/ame]
 
ttltb: Well spotted ...if he has a cluster about 1Kg then it is as insulated as a Thornes national with the feed holes blocked but no additional insulation.

finman: I'm looking at bee nests , that may have bees in them, not bees that are in nests.

Guys. You have there fast imagination.

That guy has nursed bees propably 60 years. He was the to make commercial polystyrene hives allready in 40 years ago, but product was not succesfull.

Here he has polyhive. He seems to have lots of videos By name abeja79mape

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyRqNCaVJIg"]Kevat_Hapotus_leffa - YouTube[/ame]
 
Guys. You have there vivid imagination. You see too much in the picture. Who knows what is that pile.

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it does depends on the hive cluster size and what power they feel like putting out. but if they are putting out 20W its just like a thornes. ... what is in that pile?
 
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I don't see why I should think everything that someone who has 50 hives & kept bees for x number of years is going to be correct. No more than someone who has only one hive is wrong.

Strikes me that most of this "hobby" is mostly guesswork anyway.

Fun though
 
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