Insulate or not?

[Speybee]

It's more down to a load of rubbish published by a bloke called Wedmore in 1947
According to his 'calculations' none of my bees would ever have survived winter since my first colony!!

I admit to having a copy of Wedmore ( as yet unread) but in past years when I attended local bee meets, there was myself and an old fella ( who mentored me) with 60 years worth of keeping bees and we added the floor partly open under the varroa floor and observed we were the only 2 beekeepers to have lost a colony over winter.
Maybe we were very lucky, but it is good to read how others overwinter their bees and have the opportunity to be exposed to new ideas.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I prefer my bees warm and cosy in a stable environment.

Amen

 

[Speybee]

As the Irish Bee chap said, the reason for his winter preparation is to prevent the queen from rearing brood mid-winter. It has nothing to do with the outside temperature which, though possibly warmer than north Scotland, doesn't make that much of a difference in winter. But I won't follow his example. I prefer my bees warm and cosy in a stable environment.

From the replies it appears, there are different methods used up and down the country.
Personally I beekeep as well as sowing, growing and harvesting veg and fruits with an eye firmly on the weather.

 

[Murox]

As the Irish Bee chap said, the reason for his winter preparation is to prevent the queen from rearing brood mid-winter. It has nothing to do with the outside temperature which, though possibly warmer than north Scotland, doesn't make that much of a difference in winter. But I won't follow his example. I prefer my bees warm and cosy in a stable environment.

Reminds me of something ~ oh yes 'the stable climate hive' ideas of Delon.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I admit to having a copy of Wedmore ( as yet unread)

But is that his bog standard beekeeping book (which, as a lot is pinched from other authors is reasonably harmless) or his 'On the ventilation of beehives' which I am reading at the moment (great cure for my insomnia) which, it seems to me, rather than being a serious study is aimed at trying to justify his opinions rather than listing scientifically collected data to prove a theory (which is all it is).
People do lose colonies over winter, not always to do with the way the bees are kept but rather a combination of many issues.

 

[Speybee]

But is that his bog standard beekeeping bokk (which, as a lot is pinched from other authors is reasonably harmless) or his 'On the ventilation of beehives' which I am reading at the moment (great cure for my insomnia) which, it seems to me, rather than being a serious study is aimed at trying to justify his opinions rather than listing scientifically collected data to prove a theory (which is all it is).
People do lose colonies over winter, not always to do with the way the bees are kept but rather a combination of many issues.

BJM now my interest is piqued, I was saving Wedmore for the long winter nights, now I will have to start reading it and turf out my cup of Ovaltine
In the interests of contrast and compare have you got a wee link handy, for data that would be interesting please, as it’s always good to have a wee look at both sides of the coin.
What is also good is that you have a lot of practical experience which in my book tops any theory, so I am always open to other ideas.
Two brains better than one.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I have seen more content online thay suggests to insulate a hive for winter. Yet there are a few people out there that remove the inspection board and will have some breathable cloth below the crown board or a moisture board slightly raised above.

Have people tried both methods or what do you all think?

ONLINE is one of the most dangerous sources of information I can possibly think of. There's every chance what you read is either nonsense or balderdash.
Spend some time reading the old posts in the forum especially Derek Mitchell's, jenkinsbrynmair and RAB

 

[fiat500bee]

ONLINE is one of the most dangerous sources of information I can possibly think of. There's every chance what you read is either nonsense or balderdash.

This is online.

I've seen contradictory opinion about many things bee-related on the internet and I often gravitate towards the minority point of view...it's not necessarily wrong

 

[drdrday]

This is online.

I've seen contradictory opinion about many things bee-related on the internet and I often gravitate towards the minority point of view...it's not necessarily wrong

It's fine to read around but you do need to remember it's all about location, location, location. At least online here you get predominantly UK based advice and views.

 

[fiat500bee]

It's fine to read around but you do need to remember it's all about location, location, location. At least online here you get predominantly UK based advice and views.

Point well-made and taken. (I was deliberately being a tad facetious).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was deliberately being a tad facetious.

You'll fit in well here then

 

[Madge]

I listened to the SBA’s webinar with Tom Seeley earlier this evening (as, I’m sure, many others here might have done as well), and he pointed out the benefits of an insulated hive with no top ventilation, and specifically the advantage of condensation on the side walls that bees can use over winter.

So, Rhyolite, forget the Irish guy and go for an insulated hive (particularly above the crown board), and no top ventilation.

 

[madasafish]

You will always get the odd beekeeper who is an outlier, does things differently and gets results. Whether it is applicable elsewhere is subject to mass testing and unless the beek is totally honest about the downsides, it is impossible to judge from any video.

My rules of thumb for anyone who proposes any new method is as follows:
1. What statistics have they got? If none, results are unquantifiable. Ignore them.
2. What are the downsides? If not listed,they have either found the only only perfect method in the world or they are lying by omission. Ignore them.
3. What comparisons have they made with different methods to help others judge? If none, ignore them.

That rules out about 95% of all books and videos..

(and most politicians as well)

 

[oliver90owner]

All my hives, when I had about thirty, were well ventilated throughout the winter. The few I have left are still the same. Insulation on top, ventilation at floor level. Bees in natural nests build the comb to prevent up-draughts through the nest - but managed hives all have large gaps between every frame. Think about it!

I learned, early on, that a travelling screen (or cloth) above the bees would be sealed with propolis in no time at all. They even sealed up gauzes in the roof (for roof ventilation). Yet many leave gaping holes above that the bees cannot hope to seal; they disturb the hives late in the season (when the bees have already sealed up any air leaks they are able to) and the bees are unable to reseal any cracks because they are already clustered.

That was one reason why I would strap the boxes together, if I needed to disturb the bees in winter - when pouring dilute oxalic acid over the bees in mid-winter was tried. I soon realised that autumn vapourising was a far better time to control the varroa, as the winter bees would be free of pathogens passed from blood-sucking varroa nymphs during larval pupation.

 

[Angularity]

In my hives I leave the OMF open, with about a foot of boarding all round to prevent draughts. Then there is insulation on top of the crown board. The only colony I lost last year was when I put on a fondant block in a cracked plastic box under the insulation. They ate through the middle of the fondant and thereby made a hole which created air flow which meant they starved trying to keep warm.

 

[happyculteur]

. They even sealed up gauzes in the roof (for roof ventilation). Yet many leave gaping holes above that the bees cannot hope to seal; they disturb the hives late in the season (when the bees have already sealed up any air leaks they are able to) and the bees are unable to reseal any cracks because they are already clustered.

In my Warrés the gauze above the top bars is propolized (and sometimes "depropolized") in certain spaces to control air flow. But in winter it is always blocked.

 

[Arfermo]

My bees have already propolised the ventilation gauze in their roofs 'cos they know what they want and why QED. Must say that condensation on the underside of the roof needs to avoided as it rots the roof fairly rapidly, especially if ventilation up top is restricted - as the bees like it? They don't know that it costs their carer good money to replace/repair/ protect the roof and probably couldn't care less either. Celotex or Kingspan is best protective stuff, there and elsewhere imho.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My bees have already propolised the ventilation gauze in their roofs 'cos they know what they want and why QED. Must say that condensation on the underside of the roof needs to avoided as it rots the roof fairly rapidly, especially if ventilation up top is restricted - as the bees like it? They don't know that it costs their carer good money to replace/repair/ protect the roof and probably couldn't care less either. Celotex or Kingspan is best protective stuff, there and elsewhere imho.

if you shut the hole in your crownboard and stuck a slab of celotex inside the roof, you wouldn't get condensation in the roof QED, you wouldn't need the vents.
When I make up new flat pack roofs I put them together with the silly little vent notches on the inside not outside, I don't bother with the 1x11/2" battens that are meant to go inside the roof (they get repurposed for other uses) but cut a piece of 50mm celotex to the inside dimensions of the roof, big blob of 'sticklikeshit' adhesive before pushing the celotex in place makes it a permanent fixture.
I was stripping down some old plywood roofs I made some ten years ago (no vents, just insulation) as the ply on the sides had finally delaminated and flaked to pieces - the actual plywood lid of the roof (tucked away as it was between insulation and tin roof) was as clean, rot free and devoid of mould as the day I made them.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I do that with my wooden roofs and they are all the deep ones. Not used much now as I’ve largely replaced them with the deep poly roofs from Abelo

 

[Arfermo]

if you shut the hole in your crownboard and stuck a slab of celotex inside the roof, you wouldn't get condensation in the roof QED, you wouldn't need the vents.
When I make up new flat pack roofs I put them together with the silly little vent notches on the inside not outside, I don't bother with the 1x11/2" battens that are meant to go inside the roof (they get repurposed for other uses) but cut a piece of 50mm celotex to the inside dimensions of the roof, big blob of 'sticklikeshit' adhesive before pushing the celotex in place makes it a permanent fixture.
I was stripping down some old plywood roofs I made some ten years ago (no vents, just insulation) as the ply on the sides had finally delaminated and flaked to pieces - the actual plywood lid of the roof (tucked away as it was between insulation and tin roof) was as clean, rot free and devoid of mould as the day I made them.

First line of your comment confirms what I said and I didn't shut the hole (vents) in the CB - the occupants have done it because that is what they have chosen to do. Your mod of omitting the battens great but surely weakens the structure of the roof to a degree?