I killed the queen on first inspection

[Monbees]

Hi Monbees, Sadly, I think your initial assessment that the colony is now queenless is most probably correct - it happens. If it is correct then what you looked at on frame 6 is an emergency cell and not a supersedure cell. There will be more than one, so you will have to reduce to one unless the colony is sufficiently depleted, as I believe a colony will swarm on emergency cells particularly on a flow which I am experiencing in my locale at the moment. The good news is that you may have sufficient drones by the time a virgin is ready to mate. Emergence on day 16, 2-3 days for hardening, day 3-4 orientation flights, day 5 at the earliest mating flight/s. She has three weeks to get mated after which she becomes "stale". Good luck.

Thank you Beeno. Having seen that Q cell l had decided to let nature take its course and hope that there would be enough drones (l have two other hives) to ensure a virgin queen would be mated.

What makes you think the Q cell l saw was not supersedure but emergency? I was going to ask earlier in this thread whether, with supersedure, the bees get rid of the old queen before the new queen has hatched, or do they hedge their bets until they are sure they have the new queen safely hatched and mated?

If there is more than one Q cell, why should l reduce to just one? And might the colony swarm with a newly hatched virgin queen, in which case, if I've reduced to only one Q cell, the colony would either die or l would need to combine?

I've had these bees for a couple of years, but will always consider myself a beginner as l 'inherited' them when my son moved away from home. Never done the course which l know is a no-no!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was going to ask earlier in this thread whether, with supersedure, the bees get rid of the old queen before the new queen has hatched, or do they hedge their bets until they are sure they have the new queen safely hatched and mated?

In a perfect supersedure they would keep the old queen until the new one is proven, they usually supersede in the autumn and keep both queens until the spring (which is why I suggested it at the start) but if the queen suddenly starts failing in the spring they will build a supersedure cell out of desperation.
Bees being bees, they will sometimes kill the queen before the replacement emerges

If there is more than one Q cell, why should l reduce to just one?

keeping more than one QC, especially in a densely populated may trigger the colony to send out a swarm when the first queen emerges - they may even send out a cast with the second.

might the colony swarm with a newly hatched virgin queen, in which case, if I've reduced to only one Q cell, the colony would either die or l would need to combine?

the chances of the colony swarming with the only queen in the colony are pretty slim

 

[enrico]

A supercedure queen cell is usually where the old queen is failing. A new queen emerges and the old queen is dispatched by the bees without a swarm. An emergency queen cell is where the queen goes missing and a queen cell has to be made from what is left to replace her. They usually make more than one just in case one fails. If two or more survive then the first one out may swarm as a virgin. Some like to take a risk and lead two in case one is duff. Sometimes the first out will kill the second. It is a gamble whatever you do. If eventually you end up with no queen then combine or add a frame of eggs from another hive.
This repy crossed with jbm's reply but I will leave it here anyway.
E

 

[Monbees]

A supercedure queen cell is usually where the old queen is failing. A new queen emerges and the old queen is dispatched by the bees without a swarm. An emergency queen cell is where the queen goes missing and a queen cell has to be made from what is left to replace her. They usually make more than one just in case one fails. If two or more survive then the first one out may swarm as a virgin. Some like to take a risk and lead two in case one is duff. Sometimes the first out will kill the second. It is a gamble whatever you do. If eventually you end up with no queen then combine or add a frame of eggs from another hive.
This repy crossed with jbm's reply but I will leave it here anyway.
E

If l eventually end up with no queen, it will surely be too late to add a frame of eggs as the remaining bees will be in the second half of their 35 day life?

 

[Erichalfbee]

If l eventually end up with no queen, it will surely be too late to add a frame of eggs as the remaining bees will be in the second half of their 35 day life?

So unite with another
Bees not having to rear brood do live longer, of course, but as you say they are getting on a bit to successfully feed and rear another queen

 

[beeno]

What makes you think the Q cell l saw was not supersedure but emergency?

Swarm cells and supersedure cells are primary cells that are built for the purpose of raising a queen only, so these larvae are fed Royal Jelly from the beginning. Emergency cells are extended worker brood cells originally intended to raise workers. Because of this they often appear stubby and in a panic colonies often raise many of them I counted 44 on one occasion (not my bees I hasten to add). The colony only makes emergency cells when they are queenless. If there is a choice, I believe they will always raise them from a newly hatched larva. However, if only older larvae is available then they use those and they may turn out as scrub queens, because their diet has been sub-standard. After day two/three they will not have been feed Royal Jelly as they were originally intended as a workers not a queens. The QC you found on frame six that was not capped, might be a good one! Good luck.

 

[Swarm]

Swarm cells and supersedure cells are primary cells that are built for the purpose of raising a queen only, so these larvae are fed Royal Jelly from the beginning. Emergency cells are extended worker brood cells originally intended to raise workers. Because of this they often appear stubby and in a panic colonies often raise many of them I counted 44 on one occasion (not my bees I hasten to add). The colony only makes emergency cells when they are queenless. If there is a choice, I believe they will always raise them from a newly hatched larva. However, if only older larvae is available then they use those and they may turn out as scrub queens, because their diet has been sub-standard. After day two/three they will not have been feed Royal Jelly as they were originally intended as a workers not a queens. The QC you found on frame six that was not capped, might be a good one! Good luck.

Bees raise queens and given fresh, new eggs will raise a queen in exactly the same way, just not laid in a cup.
They raise 'scrub' queens when there are NO eggs and they are forced to accept second best.
I've raised more than a few queens by simply removing the old queen. Never had a scrub replacement.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bees raise queens and given fresh, new eggs will raise a queen in exactly the same way, just not laid in a cup.
They raise 'scrub' queens when there are NO eggs and they are forced to accept second best.
I've raised more than a few queens by simply removing the old queen. Never had a scrub replacement.

There's a lot of rubbish with little resemblance to the facts spoken about emergency QC's in general.

 

[Erichalfbee]

There's a lot of rubbish with little resemblance to the facts spoken about emergency QC's in general.

I agree
I’m splitting one hive next week. It has drones and drone brood and is stuffed to the gunwhales with bees. I shall take the queen away and leave them to it. Watch this space.

 

[Monbees]

Swarm cells and supersedure cells are primary cells that are built for the purpose of raising a queen only, so these larvae are fed Royal Jelly from the beginning. Emergency cells are extended worker brood cells originally intended to raise workers. Because of this they often appear stubby and in a panic colonies often raise many of them I counted 44 on one occasion (not my bees I hasten to add). The colony only makes emergency cells when they are queenless. If there is a choice, I believe they will always raise them from a newly hatched larva. However, if only older larvae is available then they use those and they may turn out as scrub queens, because their diet has been sub-standard. After day two/three they will not have been feed Royal Jelly as they were originally intended as a workers not a queens. The QC you found on frame six that was not capped, might be a good one! Good luck.

Update on killed queen on first inspection:

Well Beeno, it seems, as you said, l might be lucky. As l said previously, l decided to let nature take its course with my queen less hive.

I reckoned today was day 18/19 from when l saw the charged supersedure cell, and today they swarmed. My calculation may have been a day or so out. I understand they may have swarmed with a virgin queen? If so, the hope is she will be mated in the next couple of days.

I was able to catch the swarm and housed it in a national box bait hive with one old brood comb, now added undrawn combs. They are still there this evening with a few bees going in and out, so am hopeful they will stay.

The original hive is still humming with plenty of bees. Should l now be expecting a further, cast swarm?

 

[enrico]

Now is the time to go in and only leave one queen cell. You have a back up if necessary!
E

 

[beeno]

Update on killed queen on first inspection:

The original hive is still humming with plenty of bees. Should l now be expecting a further, cast swarm?

That is excellent news! If you did not check for more QC beyond frame six and reduce to one - YES YES YES. With your bee suit on you can put your ear to the hive and listen out for piping! If you hear one piping and an answer from another part of the hive then there will be more! I fished one out in those circumstance, but had the advantage of her being marked (a long story).

 

[Monbees]

That is excellent news! If you did not check for more QC beyond frame six and reduce to one - YES YES YES. With your bee suit on you can put your ear to the hive and listen out for piping! If you hear one piping and an answer from another part of the hive then there will be more! I fished one out in those circumstance, but had the advantage of her being marked (a long story).

Silly question, but what does piping sound like?

 

[gmonag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYecvVhkpKI

 

[Murox]

Silly question, but what does piping sound like?

Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYecvVhkpKI

Duplicate link I see.

 

[gmonag]

There is also a reply which sounds like a duck quacking.

 

[enrico]

Depends how old you are. I can't hear a thing!
E

 

[drex]

Only problem with that method is, in my experience, that the piping is very intermittent.

 

[Monbees]

Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYecvVhkpKI

Duplicate link I see.

That's amazing - quite distinctive, like a high pitched trumpet, unless that link magnified the sound.

 

[Karsal]

I inspected one of my hives on Sunday, plenty of bees, stores and brood. I wasn't looking for the queen.

Two days later (today, Tues) I noticed a queen, plus approx 12 bees, dead on the ground in front of the hive. I can only assume that I failed to notice she was on the crown board as I carefully leant it against the landing board (WBC hive) and that she dropped off onto the ground as I replaced the crown board. She was not clipped. Is there any chance the bees can make a new queen or is it too early to expect a mating flight for a virgin queen? Or should I buy in a mated queen (if I can get one delivered under the current Covid restrictions on posting etc?)

I think the hive is queenless as on Sunday they were docile but today a bit feisty.

An interesting phone call yesterday from a friend who had just inspected her bees. After closing up her hive she noticed a small cluster of bees had appeared on the ground in front of the hive. She photographed them and sent the picture to me. I'm sure it's a dead queen and her retinue. I suggested she had either killed her queen and she had fallen off the frame. Or a supercedure where the old queen had been ejected after being killed. She has eggs and larvae in the hive so we agreed to leave it closed for several weeks and monitor the foragers returning. Fingers crossed they make a new queen if needed.