How NOT to do an Artificial Swarm

[Dishmop]

It did not. I feel pain for BB

(You forget to mention that it is illegal to kill mites with OA according English law. I do not know how it is in Scottish or Welsh law.)

The UK is still waiting for the answer to that question from the EU courts. England abides by the laws that the French implement but the French ignore all laws made by anybody other than themselves, and make up a few more each bank holiday weekend to upset English motorists.
The Welsh take no notice of English law. The Scotts take no notice of anybody. Ireland is an island made up of two halves where they used to smuggle butter and livestock across the border but then they got a Tescos, and they have never taken much notice of the UK anyway.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Things have reached a conclusion - one good colony, one duff one

I finally did the inspection that the time line suggested should show whether or not the queens were mated properly.

The queen in the Artificial Swarm is laying up brood as one would expect but I did not see her. In the Parent Colony, there were lots of drones and more importantly, drone brood scattered around the frames - see pictures.

Question is, is it a Drone Laying Queen or Drone Laying Worker? Ted Cooper suggests a DLQ occurs towards the end of the Q's life as she runs out of sperm. Others suggest she lays up as worker brood - i.e. covering the whole frame whereas DLWs lay sporadically round the periphery. If my interpretation is correct, I've probably got a DLW because the drone cells are scattered around the edge, as per photos.

I took my photos to our apiary meeting this evening but our most experienced member was not there and there was a difference of view expressed. When I did the inspection, I did not look closely to see how many eggs were in each cell so no help there. It's supposed to rain here tomorrow so probably won't be able to open them up for a considered inspection but any views based on the above and the photos would be appreciated.

If it is DLW, shaking out on the ground away from the original site seems to be the "treatment" - does this sound right?

CVB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

When the big boys and girls have stopped knocking lumps out of each other on RAB's "whingers" thread on the senior forum, would one of them take the time to have a look at my post no 22 on this thread and give me a view on what I have in one of my hives - DLQ or DLW - I'd like to take action as soon as the weather clears.

My current thoughts are that I have DLWs brought about by a long period of queenlessness and no brood smells in the hive, so dumping them on the ground some distance away seems the recommended treatment although Michael Bush - http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm - offers several other options, most of which are beyond the realms of a "One healthy hive and a nucked swarm owner"

Help greatly appreciated.

CVB

 

[masterBK]

The number of eggs in the cell can be a clue. Drone laying queens (of which there are several types eg the unmated, the incompletely mated, the fading old Q, the ones with anatomical problems eg valve controlling the release of sperm not working properly etc) usualy only lay one egg in a cell where DLW,s will often lay in cells already containing an egg and you can end up with lots of eggs in a cell some on the bottom and many on the sides at all sorts of angles.

All this is purely academic as whether you have DLW's (note the plural as there can be up to 50 laying at any one time) or a DLQ, the worker bees in the colony are now old the drones are a drain on the colony leading to smelly abandoned drone brood & often chalk brood so colony is ultimately doomed so dump them out.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

How's this for a Plan?

The number of eggs in the cell can be a clue. Drone laying queens (of which there are several types eg the unmated, the incompletely mated, the fading old Q, the ones with anatomical problems eg valve controlling the release of sperm not working properly etc) usualy only lay one egg in a cell where DLW,s will often lay in cells already containing an egg and you can end up with lots of eggs in a cell some on the bottom and many on the sides at all sorts of angles.

All this is purely academic as whether you have DLW's (note the plural as there can be up to 50 laying at any one time) or a DLQ, the worker bees in the colony are now old the drones are a drain on the colony leading to smelly abandoned drone brood & often chalk brood so colony is ultimately doomed so dump them out.

Thanks for that masterBK. The problem with being a beginner is you don’t always know what questions to ask. It was only after I’d photographed the frames and closed up yesterday that I was able to search my books and the internet for information – that’s when I saw that I should have looked carefully to see how many eggs were in each cell. Based on the pattern of drone cells and your comments, I’ll assume that I’ve got DLWs and dump them out 100 metres away – I have a secure area away from the public where I can do this.

My thoughts were then to put the empty frames, now free of all bees in a bee-tight plastic box for the journey back home. I have a nuc with a swarm that I put in it two weeks ago that seems to be doing ok. If I were to move the frames from the nuc and their attached bees into the the empty "problem" hive in the position of the nuc – about a metre away from where the problem hive currently is, will the returning bees from the “dump” kill my swarm queen or will she be relatively safe? This way I can use lots of stores from the problem hive to fill the 14x12 hive to help the swarm build up – I could also go through the frames carefully and manually remove the drone cells, leaving only stores – I’m retired so I’ve got the time to do this and it would be penance for being stupid back in May!

Does the old brood box need any treatment before I put the Nuc bees in it. If I were to scorch it, then perhaps smoke it, the returning bees might not recognise it as their hive. What the returning bees would do while all this is going on, I don't know - probably fly around wondering where home has gone but this would probably be for less that half an hour.

Any thoughts?

CVB

 

[oliver90owner]

As MBK, I think.

Unless there are an appreciable number of workers, they are useless. Better to concentrate on your goers as this one does not appear to be going anywhere.

Could harp back to your removing qeen cells and ask if those were viable at the time, but it does not look good.

Cannot remember now, but you were short of eggs for a test frame at some point?

As I see it now, a test frame might give you an idea of Q-, but recovery from that situation would likely require a laying queen and possibly added bees or emerging brood, so likely a risky and counter-productive move. The only up-side, if there were still lots of bees, which I doubt, and no queen would be a possible unite over a strong colony.

RAB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

As MBK, I think.

Unless there are an appreciable number of workers, they are useless. Better to concentrate on your goers as this one does not appear to be going anywhere.

Could harp back to your removing qeen cells and ask if those were viable at the time, but it does not look good.

Cannot remember now, but you were short of eggs for a test frame at some point?

As I see it now, a test frame might give you an idea of Q-, but recovery from that situation would likely require a laying queen and possibly added bees or emerging brood, so likely a risky and counter-productive move. The only up-side, if there were still lots of bees, which I doubt, and no queen would be a possible unite over a strong colony.

RAB

Thanks for that, RAB. Our responses have crossed in the ether.

To precis, I started out in the spring with one strong colony that started filling a super. I did an artificial swarm in May - badly. The AS colony swarmed, as did the Parent Colony with the first virgin queen so from one strong colony, I've gone to two small colonies, one of which appears to be Q+, the AS, and the other has DLWs - hence the post #22.

I also have nuc with a swarm in it that has a queen which is laying well but not really in a position, I would think, to lose eggs in the hope of saving the DLW hive.

CVB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

The deed is done - No more DLWs!

RAB will forgive my tautology when I say my drone laying workers have been dumped - I tipped them out on some secure land 150 metres from the garden apiary, brushed all the bees from the hive and frames and brought all the equipment home.

I also moved the swarm that was in a nuc a little closer to their final position and left them there for two days - first picture. Today, I transferred the swarm from the nuc to the now disused hive on the stand - second picture. I used the frames and stores from the DLW colony to fill up the hive, having previously carefully removed the remains of the drone cells on these frames - 4 hours of painstaking work! I figured there was no disease associated with the old DLW colony so the stores are definitely usable. My only concern was the odd bit of drone pupae left on the comb but I figured that the bees would be better at cleaning that up than I would.

It's going to be interesting to see how many frames the swarm colony and returning DLW colony bees combine to give me, once they've settled down.

There are so many stores available, I'm reluctant to follow the usual advice and feed the colony when it goes from nuc to hive. Any thoughts on this anybody?

CVB

 

[oliver90owner]

There are so many stores available, I'm reluctant to follow the usual advice and feed the colony when it goes from nuc to hive. Any thoughts on this anybody?

Yes. Why on earth are you even considering feeding them when they already have enough stores to last until the next inspection. Feeding is unnecesary in those circumstances in every case of a bee colony. No exceptions needed. In fact, they can have less than that amount if the beek is aware that income will exceeed consumption.

I might ask if you were feeding the nuc yesterday? If you were not, what has changed since then for them to need feeding?

RAB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

There are so many stores available, I'm reluctant to follow the usual advice and feed the colony when it goes from nuc to hive. Any thoughts on this anybody?

I might ask if you were feeding the nuc yesterday? If you were not, what has changed since then for them to need feeding?

RAB

No, I was not feeding the nuc. I have read on the internet (can't remember where) that you should feed when you move a nuc-sized colony into a full-sized brood box although that may have been for the situation where there was a lot of foundation to be drawn, which is not the case with the stores available from my laying-worker colony.

CVB

 

[oliver90owner]

although that may have been for the situation where there was a lot of foundation to be drawn

Absolutely no difference. You want bees not more stores. Too much stores does not generate a larger colony, ever.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I don't believe it - Queen Cells in the AS colony

I did a routine 7 day inspection to see if I could spot and mark the queen.

What I found were sealed Queen Cells - four of them. Thing is they don't look like swarm cells - more like supercedure cells from their position- see photos. There were 2 1/2 frames of brood although I did not see any eggs, 3 1/2 frames of stores and plenty of room to expand. There is a super on the brood box and the roof has 100mm of insulation in it, so it should be warm.

My last inspection was 7 days ago so there should not have been time for a sealed queen cell to appear so I must have missed their early signs - it's a real nuisance - I could soon be back to one hive if this carries on.

The question is, what should I do now? My inclination is to let them get on with it if it is a supercedure. Any thoughts?

To cap it all I got stung on the finger - just not my day!

CVB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Why are they still alive on the ground?

On 29th June, I dumped the colony with laying workers on secure land 150 metres from my home apiary. The man who cuts the grass on the area where I dumped them reported yesterday that there were bees on the ground there.

I had a look today and sure enough there was a small cluster of bees - maybe a cup full - on the ground where I dumped the LWs.

The question is, what to do with them so that the man can cut the grass? I don't want them back if they're going to start laying drones again. We could be waiting until the middle of August for nature to take its course.

Anybody think of any alternatives?

CVB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Help - Advice Needed

Any advice about what, if anything, I should do with the bees on the ground?

CVB

 

[Rich0909]

Put a box over them, they will soon move up into it, you can then move them out of the way.

Rich

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Put a box over them, they will soon move up into it, you can then move them out of the way.

Rich

Excellent idea - why didn't I think of that! I'll go down there straight away and put a small box over them. I can move then them tomorrow - guests arriving in two hours.

CVB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Excellent idea - why didn't I think of that! I'll go down there straight away and put a small box over them. I can move then them tomorrow - guests arriving in two hours.

CVB

They're now covered with a plastic tub and I hope to move it and the stones they're congregated on tomorrow.

 

[BeeJayBee]

You could have put an old frame or old bit of comb next to them, they'd have walked straight onto it.