Housel Positioning of frames

[pargyle]

Even parsnips?

The force is with them ....

 

[Newbeeneil]

Surely the force is needed with rhubarb?

 

[rolande]

Hexagons are the strongest structure so each hexagon has two verticals each of which is shared with the adjacent cell on each side. There is only one position for this. Any other orientation of a hexagon would just collapse as comb. There MUST be the two VERTICAL sides for integrity.

Bees, left to their own devices will happily build and use cells with horizontal tops and bottoms rather than vertical sides.



Also, some years ago, Tom Bick uploaded a particularly clear photo of such cells in a foundationless frame. I'll hazard a guess that everyone using a quantity of foundationless frames or top bars will be familiar with combs built like this.

 

[Antipodes]

To me those natural cells seems hexaconal
From very beginning

So is the comb closest to the camera the central one? That's almost like perhaps a central comb?
I can't get my bearings on the photo. I can see the Y's behind.

 

[Finman]

So is the comb closest to the camera the central one? That's almost like perhaps a central comb?
I can't get me bearings on the photo. I can see the Y's behind.

The cell edge is thick and bees shape the tube thinner when the tube grows.

Our langstroth foundations are 100 g/ sheet.
Bee can build half way the cells with foundation wax. I notices it when I weighed half way drawn combs and founfation frame.

Actually I do not mind how they make their combs.

You can wonder how a wasp makes similar combs from plant wood fibres.

 

[Antipodes]

This is probably the best Article I can find to explain the concept to those unfamiliar with it,
https://www.apiservices.biz/en/articles/sort-by-popularity/772-housel-positioning-2002(NB: READ Michael Palmer's Post #3 above before coming to any conclusions)

My two cents:
I want to believe in Ms. Lusby's teachings, or the theories that she puts forward to give a narrative to why bees do what they do, moving towards a more natural beekeeping, but I do not have the faith... IF such explanations (theories/narratives) are correct, surely it would have been reasonably easy for a Research Paper to be published on the subject...

Apiarist, I'm a bit like you one this one I think. Following from what Lusby does with her markings, this summer, as soon as I embeded the wax, I just put a V on the top of the frames, with the tip of the V on the outside position . So in my 8 frame boxes, 4 frames have the V tip to one side, and 4 go the other. Of course there is no "central" frame but in the "middle" two frames, the V's look like this... < >. It takes about 30 seconds to look at the foundation (with glasses and good light), and flip them to the "correct" orientation, and a few seconds longer to pencil mark the top. I keep thinking of Lusby and her husband checking 3500 of them.....
I'm not foundationless, but I'm really interested to hear from any natural or foundationless beeks out there who may have noticed if there is a particular orientation of the Y's. I did a cut out of a wild colony a few months back, but hadn't come across Housel then so didn't check....

 

[Finman]

I am not interested about those Lusby theories. There are much more interesting things in the life that look all the time bees' miracles. I have nursed bees 60 years. That is much if you are going to check all guy's invented miracles. Beekeeping world is full of stupid ideas.

 

[pargyle]

Surely the force is needed with rhubarb?

Also found in Brussels Sprouts ....

 

[rolande]

I'm not foundationless, but I'm really interested to hear from any natural or foundationless beeks out there who may have noticed if there is a particular orientation of the Y's.

No. They do what they like including building cells on their side. Absolutely no kind of universal consistency.

It's a little like the idea that they build comb in particular directions; it's relatively easy, with a small number of colonies to convince ourselves that there's a pattern but either time or increased colony numbers will destroy the idea.

 

[Antipodes]

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podca...ekeeper-educator/id1512755530?i=1000528567407
Ronnie with Ben where she discusses Housel
31.30 on the podcast .

 

[Murox]

Well mine do this ( from last summer)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

However crackpot a 'theory' that can be dug out. There will always be a few gullible people convinced it's true and will furnish 'proof' to cover their embarrassment

 

[Into the lions den]

Long time ago now I was a moderator on Bee-L when this stuff all kicked off and went crazy.

Loads of sycophants crawling out of the woodwork to support Dee Lusby in her 'mission' to bring us all to small cell...which was very much for her own agenda (no need to go into that here...….)

The Housel theory as that bees drew a special first centre comb (Y facing upwards on both sides!) and then all combs after that were drawn out from there with the 'Y' always facing away from the special Housel centre comb. The only truly natural way they draw comb. Hundreds of posters came in on that and sci.ag.beek supporting this.

Problem is, for anyone prepared to override this being little more than a belief structure..or as Allen Dick from Canada called them..a cult...its is actually geometrically impossible without using large amounts of wax and sacrificing structural strength. So confident was I that this was all sycophantic bunk that I offered USD 1000 to the first person able to send me a square of Housel centre comb....with the Y upwards on both sides. Had to be at lest 3" by 3".

To my eternal shame I started checking the combs built by ferals in bushes, shed roofs etc and quoting what I found. Never a Housel colony seen.....cells could be points up or down ...flats up or down...or inclined across the comb. A TENDENCY to be points up and down but not a rule, and varied even within colonies.


So the Lusby camp move the goalposts (normal behaviour for the type)...that our wild comb swarms were either 1. not in a natural situation..or 2. Already so degraded by management that they had lost their natural instincts to do Housel any more.

On the absence of the Housel centre comb...that the whole premise was founded on? Well apparently most bees had now evolved to the state where the Housel centre comb was only a virtual artifact and its non existence was because bees knew of its virtual presence and drew Housel pattern without the centre comb.

Unsurprisingly I still have my 1000 dollars.
….


Now....if you were a leading figure in the Arizona bee industry and wanting to keep access to the lucrative California market which at the time was rejecting Africanised bees (which quite coincidentally prefer 4.9 cells to the 5.3 or so commonly used) you might come up with some very elaborate constructs to explain a phenomenon which is actually very simple, in order to deny Africanisation.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Long time ago now I was a moderator on Bee-L when this stuff all kicked off and went crazy.

Now....if you were a leading figure in the Arizona bee industry and wanting to keep access to the lucrative California market which at the time was rejecting Africanised bees (which quite coincidentally prefer 4.9 cells to the 5.3 or so commonly used) you might come up with some very elaborate constructs to explain a phenomenon which is actually very simple, in order to deny Africanisation.

I remember when this was being discussed on Bee-L. Also, it took over BeeSource a number of years later. Again I asked for a photo of a central comb referencing your $1000 offer. Bush posted a photo of a central comb...nothing more than a mal-formed bit of foundationless comb with the Ys facing sideways. After talking about nucleus colonies at a number of their "Treatment Free" conferences, and listening to the theories being spewed by Lusby, Bush, Stiglitz and others, I called their work "Faith Based" beekeeping. Sad so many beekeepers lost their bees, year after year. They just didn't have the faith, baby.

 

[Finman]

What I have seen swarms, they start comb building from the side wall. They do not start from the middle of the box.

When the swarm is big, they start from many points and then join partial combs together

...... how the bees know, in what point of cavity they are working and what comb they should formulate?

 

[user 20297]

What I have seen swarms, they start comb building from the side wall. They do not start from the middle of the box.

When the swarm is big, they start from many points and then join partial combs together

...... how the bees know, in what point of cavity they are working and what comb they should formulate?

.........how do bees know anything about anything?....maybe it's magic?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

how the bees know, in what point of cavity they are working

the scout bees carry a Gunter's chain and theodolite

 

[Newbeeneil]

the scout bees carry a Gunter's chain and theodolite

I'm sure it will be GPS nowadays........ or maybe......... energy lines?

 

[Into the lions den]

Sad so many beekeepers lost their bees, year after year. They just didn't have the faith, baby.

Yes....I remember your input in various places...we come from the same camp I think....interested in everything but are invested with enough experience to (usually!) spot a lemon when one is advanced towards you. This was always a lemon as it just made zero sense. To be fair...having no direct experience of Arizona, I was reliant on a lot of input from John Erikson (is he still alive?).

Some serious and reputable beekeepers were sucked in by this thinking it might be the anti varroa magic bullet.

I was of the opinion that they (the originators and preachers) should have been charged with animal cruelty. In any other field they would have been fined or jailed for just letting their livestock die like that.......I suspect many hundreds of thousands of colonies perished over the years due to their owners following that false star.

 

[Norton]

Bees, left to their own devices will happily build and use cells with horizontal tops and bottoms rather than vertical sides.

View attachment 29706

Also, some years ago, Tom Bick uploaded a particularly clear photo of such cells in a foundationless frame. I'll hazard a guess that everyone using a quantity of foundationless frames or top bars will be familiar with combs built like this.

Yes, correct.