Honey Super above or below the brood for overwintering?

[beehive1234]

My hives all have full supers on for the winter. Their winter supply of food also includes the honey stored in the brood box. To me this replicates the wild honey bee nest.
Unyet people say to nadire the super.
This evening I watched as the rain drove across the fields and imagined it as snow. What if the snow is deep. I know they will cluster. As the thaw begins......will the food above be more available? Why do we recomend putting their honey below them?

 

[yeogi75]

if the super is full put there by the bees leave it there, if its empty you have extracted it put under,

 

[REDWOOD]

Depends on what you want next spring, If you intend going brood and a 1/2 leave it on top, if you want to remain single brood then put it under the BB.

No queen excludes are used in either option

 

[yeogi75]

its a bit late in the year even if it is warm to go ripping hives apart.

 

[enrico]

We don't suggest you put the honey underneath..... You have slightly misunderstood. What we suggest is that you put the super under the bb in autumn. The bees then move any stores from the super to the bb filling the spaces as they become available as the queen goes off lay. If the bb is full then some honey will remain in the super. This is the first honey they use as it is at the cool bottom of the hive. This super then becomes empty and you can remove it. They then use the honey in the bb, steadily moving up the hive so as food becomes more scarce the area they have to heat becomes smaller.
If however you work on brood and a half then you can have them in whatever order you like but they will end up in the top box in spring.....probably.
We do not advocate removing stores in late autumn to the bottom, if you do this the bees have to waste energy moving them or they don't manage to move it all and food gets split into two places or they end up using far more food because of the empty space above.....hope this helps you understand what we mean!
E

 

[Hivemaker.]

Why do we recomend putting their honey below them?

I don't, never have, think it is a ridiculous place to put their honey stores.

 

[MuswellMetro]

My hives all have full supers on for the winter. Their winter supply of food also includes the honey stored in the brood box. To me this replicates the wild honey bee nest.
Unyet people say to nadire the super.
This evening I watched as the rain drove across the fields and imagined it as snow. What if the snow is deep. I know they will cluster. As the thaw begins......will the food above be more available? Why do we recomend putting their honey below them?

i think you missunderstood the reason why beekeepers put a super of honey under brood

the bees will naturally put honey above the brood and dislike honey under the brood

so if you put a full honey super under the brood the bees move it to where THEY want in the brood area , pack it and quite quickly empty the super which becomes a wind break

if you put or leave honey super above the brood then there is the possibility the queen will not cross from brood to super in mid winter once all the brood honey is eaten

 

[oliver90owner]

As Hivemaker.

Would any sensible farmer build a hay loft below his cattle so they could sh1t and pee on their winter feed? I don't thik so.

 

[itma]

As above, there's a lot of misunderstandings.

Another valid reason for putting another box *under* the brood (in this case an empty one) is when there is a shortage of 'space' (empty comb) available to the bees - and with the long mild spell, there's a lot of boxes been stuffed full.
This should be a familiar concept to anyone that has ever encountered the Warré system …



It IS getting late for ripping hives apart, but I'd still advise it for anyone that has left a QX between brood and 'super'. In winter, the QX shouldn't be preventing Q from accessing any food area available to the bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

so if you put a full honey super under the brood the bees move it to where THEY want in the brood area , pack it and quite quickly empty the super which becomes a wind break

Especially useful if you have uncapped stores left after extracting. The bees will move the honey up to the brood box and cap it for later use. The shallow under then becomes space for the queen to lay if needed should we have a mild autumn with masses of Ivy nectar available. In the spring it's empty and you can take it away.

 

[Finman]

Especially useful if you have uncapped stores left after extracting. The bees will move the honey up to the brood box and cap it for later use. The shallow under then becomes space for the queen to lay if needed should we have a mild autumn with masses of Ivy nectar available. In the spring it's empty and you can take it away.

Oh boy. That is a way to start robbing and fighting in your yard. The last thing what you should do. Huge fighting around entrance. And unpractical way to lift all boxes back and forth and situate a box lowest.

Best way is to put extracted box to topmost of ther hive.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well, I have nadired part filled shallows for four years and never had a problem.
Lots of folk here on the forum do as well....do they have a problem?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well, I have nadired part filled shallows for four years and never had a problem.
Lots of folk here on the forum do as well....do they have a problem?

No problems at all with nadiring - never had a problem with robbing

 

[itma]

Well, I have nadired part filled shallows for four years and never had a problem.
Lots of folk here on the forum do as well....do they have a problem?

Only problem I've had has been lifting 14x12 broods …
… and I've only ever nadired one additional shallow at a time.


And I repeat the point that lifting ALL the existing boxes to add extra space in the form of an empty box to the bottom of the stack is one of the essences of the Warré system - which some people actually advocate!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I heard a quote about Warre somewhere (source evades me at the moment)

'Nice bloke - shame he knows b*gger all about bees'​

 

[itma]

I heard a quote about Warre somewhere (source evades me at the moment)

'Nice bloke - shame he knows b*gger all about bees'​

I was the OP that I had in mind …

 

[beehive1234]

Thanks everyone. I am so relieved it is OK to leave the full supers on top. Got a bit mixed up with " cleaning wet supers" and "wind tunnels"
No QE on.
Warre hives obviously as you know, keep the honey at the top. Much smaller boxes though for nadiring.
If the brood has moved into the super in Spring, might have to nadire then?
Thank you for all your help.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If the brood has moved into the super in Spring, might have to nadire then?
.

Depends on whether you're going to use those nasssssty queen excluders or not - if yes, find the queen, put her in the bottom box, put QX on then leave the brood in the super emerge and the bees backfill with honey. if no QX just leave alone, super as usual and leave them find their own tipping point

 

[MikeT]

My strongest hive has a super full of ivy/mustard/radish honey (and were still bringing masses in today), the super has no QE but is of drone foundation, What should I do in the spring? At this late stage of the autumn I am very reluctant to mess about with the hives, All 3 of my hives now have very heavy BBs and I think they may be too heavy to lift by my self.

Mike

 

[REDWOOD]

I have 14x12 frames full of honey, is that not the same, well in fact it is the same, don't bees consume bottom stores first and then move up ?