Honey feeds excitement!

[Tremyfro]

Reading through a few of the posts...I can feel the excitement building as beekeepers report supers filling...recommendations to get the supers onto the hives.....
I haven't needed to feed my main colonies this year...only the nucs. Amazingly, the bees have been able to collect enough to feed themselves through the June gap and July gap....well early summer gap really!
The last few days have been busy, busy, busy in the hives. Today we are checking to see which ones...if any...need more space.
Since moving my bees into beehaus's....I've been thinking about how I kept my bees previously ...in double nationals and comparing their behaviour in the long hive. I have put supers on the beehaus but I'm thinking of how expanding sideways for honey stores would be so much easier. No queen excluder needed....no separating space to negotiate. The brood expanding and contracting as it needs to change during the season. It has its attractions. More along the lines of the traditional long hive...like Pargyles? It's just the logistics of accommodating the size of frame. My extractor can take a BS national frame but not a 14x12. So I am thinking that a raised board to prevent extra comb on the bottom of the smaller frames may suffice. That means I use the whole hive during the season. Using the second half for swarm control in the early months and for honey stores later in the season....using the raised board. Do you think it is feasible?

 

[For want of a better word]

Made me think....
That is why I have standard National brood and supers... fortunately even the ancient WRC stuff fits my BeeHiveSupplies polly hives.
Even the frames in the WBCs... National super, but only 10... fit into my hard working 9 frame radial...

Never extract from brood frames... possibly could be contaminated with dead bits of brood and therefore in contravention of UK honey regulations!

The TBH long coffin contraption is living up to its name.. the NO HONEY HIVE !!!

Yeghes da

 

[Tremyfro]

I'm glad I made you think Icanhopit.....I'm really pleased for you....there is nothing better than feeling you can use all the equipment you invested in. Versatility is good. I have found that my bees quickly outgrew the national brood box and required two of them....which proved too heavy for me.
Your black bees make a smaller brood nest ....I believe you have told us....so don't require as much space in the height of the season.
Since I had a colony in a 14x12 box already...and found the frames OK to lift etc....hence my decision to move to the long hive.
Did I say there was no honey in my hive?...hmmm I don't think I said that. They are filling the supers....above the QE.
The bees collect the nectar and store it....it doesn't matter what kind of hive you use. Bees in trees, bees in the attic, bees in the wall, bees in a vertical hive and bees in a horizontal hive.....they all store their honey in whatever shape of hive you use. My long hive takes 14x12 frames but also takes the BS national frame....they just build a bit of comb below it...that's all. I was thinking of a way to save them the trouble and me from having to cut it off before extraction. By raising the floor a bit I could prevent that from happening. A piece of correx board would work. Then I can easily extract the frames. I can actually fit the 14x12 frames in the extractor....but it is a fiddle.
I am not contravening any honey regulations as I don't sell my honey ...it is for our own consumption. However, I have yet to find any dead brood in my honey from frames previously used for brood.
I was mainly thinking of extracting surplus honey...that honey not required by the bees for winter.....the honey that would normally be stored in supers above the brood nest.....the honey which would be stored well beyond the brood nest in comb not used by the bees for brood.....but sideways.
Contraption or not....I like the long hive. The bees don't care anyway....they are busy doing their bee stuff. My long hives have really good insulation...the sides are full of sheepwool insulation and the vast OMF is closed off with celotex. It's like a thick tree trunk lying sideways.

 

[pargyle]

Made me think....
That is why I have standard National brood and supers... fortunately even the ancient WRC stuff fits my BeeHiveSupplies polly hives.
Even the frames in the WBCs... National super, but only 10... fit into my hard working 9 frame radial...

Never extract from brood frames... possibly could be contaminated with dead bits of brood and therefore in contravention of UK honey regulations!

The TBH long coffin contraption is living up to its name.. the NO HONEY HIVE !!!

Yeghes da

That's just not quite right ... you get very large colonies in long hives compared to standard nationals - I've seen up to 12/13 frames of brood in my 14 x 12 Long hive and the rest of the 25 frames filled with honey. They perhaps do not make as big a surplus as a vertical hive but, to suggest that an LDH is a NO HONEY HIVE, it's pretty clear that you have either never had one or you didn't use it to it's best advantage.

There's not a lot wrong with a hive that produces a good few pounds of spare honey - and has plenty left to feed itself over winter. The LDH has lots of advantages for hobby beekeepers who just want a couple of hives - no heavy lifting being the principle one and they are so easy to inspect - just sliding the brood frames along with plenty of space to spare - virtually no disturbance of the bees. You are, I regret, talking with a degree of uninformed prejudice (that's the nice way of putting it !)

We are not talking Top Bar Hives here - these LDH have conventional 14 x 12 frames and I know Trem's beehaus', like my LDH, are highly insulated and the bees do love them.

I don't agree that you should not take honey from frames that have previously had brood in - another misconception - the bees thoroughly clean the cells before they start filling them with honey and as long as there are not eggs or brood in the frames to be extracted I can't see anything amiss with that. Indeed, if you are trying to tell us that honey can only be sold in the UK that has come from frames that have never had brood in them then I'm reading the regs wrong - even in supers from above a Queen excluder that are extracted there's the occasional bee leg or antennae that gets through - that's why we strain it through a fine filter. But perhaps you could guide me to the part of the honey regs that insists on honey being only extracted from frames that have never had brood in them ? Perhaps we will all have to move to flow frames to be absolutely certain ?

@ Tremyfro

The downside is that finding an extractor that takes 14 x 12 frames or modifying one to cope is a PIA and I think crush and strain is a less than productive way of taking the honey out. I can't easily put supers on the top of my LDH as it has a hinged roof for ease, again, of inspections.

However, I have often thought of using standard national frames at the extremities of my LDH with a false floor underneath them - I too can extract standard nationals in my extractor and whilst I haven't actually made this modification it would not be too difficult to create a small 'box' that sits in the bottom of the hive on the floor to block off the space beneath the shorter frames. Perhaps a couple of slabs of 50mm Kingspan taped together with auminium tape would do the job ? Have, say, five standard nationals at either end of the box for them to store honey (which would be the equivalent of two supers) and in my LDH it would leave 15 frames in the middle for brood which should be enough - but you can juggle the combination of frame sizes to suit what they are doing.

I have tended to take honey filled frames out of my LDH as they are filled rather than harvesting all at once and I have modified my extractor so that I can spin out two 14 x 12's at a time but they have to be on the diagonal in the cage and it takes a bit of doing to get them fully extracted. It's also a big clean up job for just a couple of frames.

Although I only have one LDH at present, in time (and when I no longer will have to move my hives) I would have no hesitation in building some more. I do have 7 Paynes 14 x 12 polys as well and I am an equally enthusiastic fan of them as well... so no prejudice here.

 

[Tremyfro]

That's what I thought Pargyle. I like your idea of a couple of pieces of celotex taped together. That would be really easy to do. I have already got some to use as insulators at the end of the brood nest during the winter....I could just lie them down flat. One may even be enough. I think I will try this next year for sure. It will make extraction simpler. I can get 14x12 frames in my extractor but it does mean taking off the handle and gears from above each time...a real faff. They are just that little bit too big to slide past and into the cage.
As you say 10 BS national size frames would be the equivalent of 2 supers.
Do your bees store honey at the front and back of your LDH? Mine seem to store at the back mainly....perhaps it's to do with orientation. One hive faces SE and two face S. The one facing SE stores honey at the back and along the edges of the north side of the frames.

 

[B+.]

Do your bees store honey at the front and back of your LDH? Mine seem to store at the back mainly....perhaps it's to do with orientation. One hive faces SE and two face S. The one facing SE stores honey at the back and along the edges of the north side of the frames.

I think this tallies with the way bees in log hives stored their food stores. Any robber would have to get past the whole brood nest to access their food.

 

[Tremyfro]

I think this tallies with the way bees in log hives stored their food stores. Any robber would have to get past the whole brood nest to access their food.

Oooo.....I like that idea....that robbers have to get past all the brood nest to access the honey. Robber beware!

 

[pargyle]

That's what I thought Pargyle. I like your idea of a couple of pieces of celotex taped together. That would be really easy to do. I have already got some to use as insulators at the end of the brood nest during the winter....I could just lie them down flat. One may even be enough. I think I will try this next year for sure. It will make extraction simpler. I can get 14x12 frames in my extractor but it does mean taking off the handle and gears from above each time...a real faff. They are just that little bit too big to slide past and into the cage.
As you say 10 BS national size frames would be the equivalent of 2 supers.
Do your bees store honey at the front and back of your LDH? Mine seem to store at the back mainly....perhaps it's to do with orientation. One hive faces SE and two face S. The one facing SE stores honey at the back and along the edges of the north side of the frames.

If you remember the entrance to my LDH is in the middle of the long side so the brood nest is sited in the middle of the hive and they store the honey in the frames at either side of the brood nest.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/sets/72157634865981506/

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oooo.....I like that idea....that robbers have to get past all the brood nest to access the honey. Robber beware!

That's how bees always arrange the nest - once the brood reduces after the silly season you will notice the brood 'arch' in a a cold way hive is not an arch but finishes high up on the edge of the frame that faces the entrance and reaches the floor at the rear, the last bit packed with stores - warm way hives have more of a symmetrical arch with the rearmost frame all stores.

 

[beeno]

That's just not quite right ... you get very large colonies in long hives compared to standard nationals - I've seen up to 12/13 frames of brood in my 14 x 12 Long hive and the rest of the 25 frames filled with honey. .

Thanks pargyle - cue Oliver from some years ago.

 

[Swarm]

 

[Tremyfro]

I had noticed the arch of stores in my warm way hives...but last year the colony in the one beehaus was only a young colony so only made the usual arch of honey in their half of the hive. I was interested in Pargyles comment because I thought I would utilise the whole long hive by allowing them to store horizontally instead of vertically.
I haven't got any cold way hives so haven't been able to see where they place their stores.
Pargyle....I had forgotten that your entrance was central. So if the stores are on both sides....what is their progression around the hive during the winter? Do you think that the large colony and the good insulation helps prevent isolation from the stores?
In Dartingtons book he talks about rearranging the honey stores.

 

[pargyle]

I had noticed the arch of stores in my warm way hives...but last year the colony in the one beehaus was only a young colony so only made the usual arch of honey in their half of the hive. I was interested in Pargyles comment because I thought I would utilise the whole long hive by allowing them to store horizontally instead of vertically.
I haven't got any cold way hives so haven't been able to see where they place their stores.
Pargyle....I had forgotten that your entrance was central. So if the stores are on both sides....what is their progression around the hive during the winter? Do you think that the large colony and the good insulation helps prevent isolation from the stores?
In Dartingtons book he talks about rearranging the honey stores.

I've tended to re-roganise the stores in readiness for winter and put the majority of the frames which have stores that I'm leaving in the hive to one side of the brood nest. However, I leave the brood nest where they have it and I've found that, like my conventional hives, they tend to back fill the brood area with honey in the autumn and they usually go into winter with 9 or 10 frames of honey. Being heavily insulated I've noticed (through the clear crownboards) that the bees tend to remain quite active over winter so I've never had a problem with them painting themselves into a corner - isolation starvation. On most years they have got through to spring and there are still a number of frames of stores still left when they start to forage again, I'd rather that than have to feed them.

You are quite right about Roger Dartington - he does talk about moving stores to one end of the hive so that they eat their way through it - again, his entrances tend to be on the end walls and not in the middle like mine.

 

[Tremyfro]

That's interesting. So do you use a separator board either side or pack it with insulation? Or just leave it empty. I know the honey acts as an insulator....so on that side it would be ok but on the other side of the brood nest would you need to insulate?
I can see that with the beehaus having that central separator board it would be easy to get into only using one side of the hive...like a Paynes jumbo hive. I need to expand into the rest of it I think and use it as a whole hive. It's amazing how after using conventional vertical hives ...how easy it is to get hooked on the enclosed vertical idea.....using the second half only for swarm control.
When I do the inspections next week I am going to make better notes about what is stored where on the combs. Recently, it has been more...are there eggs....are there queen cells.....are there stores...rather than recording what is on the combs and where it is. Omlet do a little booklet for keeping records. I haven't used them but they use a picture of the frames in the beehaus...and a legend to record what on each frame. It gives you a good idea of how the brood nest is shaped. If I photocopied a few pages I could use them.

 

[pargyle]

That's interesting. So do you use a separator board either side or pack it with insulation? Or just leave it empty. I know the honey acts as an insulator....so on that side it would be ok but on the other side of the brood nest would you need to insulate?

Yes - I use dividers eitther side of the brood area to keep the area they have to maintain at an optimum level - if they are only using 10 frames then there is a spare frame at either end then a divider and I pack the spare space the other side of the divider with blocks of Kingspan (I have a number of blocks that I can use in combination to fill whatever the spare space is).

I move the dividers as the brood nest expands in the spring to ensure there is always space in the hive for them to expand and as the colony size reduces in the autumn I reduce it down and they usually over winter on about 12 or 13 frames with dividers at either end; the rest of the hive filled with insulation and 100mm of Kingspan on top of the crown board.

I have clear crownboards on my LDH and I actually seal them to the top of the hive with aluminium tape on my final autumn inspection and they are left sealed up then until spring - saves them a lot of propolising. I used to monitor the hive temperature and humidity but I've learned enough from doing that over three years to know that the system I have works well (bees survive and thrive) and although I still have the kit to do it I don't feel the need any more. The bees seemed to prefer to keep the hive temperature as close to about 30 degrees as they could - and a relative humidity of about 75% to 85%. Even in the depths of winter (bearing in mind this is the Costa del Fareham) the temperature at the crown board rarely fell below about 13 degrees.

They eat less stores when they are warm and varroa levels are very low - and I don't treat.