Hiving a swarm...or not?

[Jonnyl]

Hello everyone. I caught my first swarm yesterday, about the size of a football. I've hived it in a 14x12 nuc for now and reduced the entrance. 5 frames of foundation and one frame or drawn. Now I have one q+ hive and another I believe is q- and was thinking of combining the swarm with the q- hive. Does this sound wise? I don't think the swarm came from my hives as one is queenless and the other has a new queen only 2 months old but I can't be sure as I won't get into the give until this evening. If I do combine (nuc frames into a brood box above the q- hive and newspaper) should I allow the nuc to draw new comb and lay eggs before I do so and should I vape them for varroa as well? Alternatively could I simply leave the swarm in th enuc to overwinter? Thank you for any help you can afford me.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hello everyone. I caught my first swarm yesterday, about the size of a football. I've hived it in a 14x12 nuc for now and reduced the entrance. 5 frames of foundation and one frame or drawn. Now I have one q+ hive and another I believe is q- and was thinking of combining the swarm with the q- hive. Does this sound wise? I don't think the swarm came from my hives as one is queenless and the other has a new queen only 2 months old but I can't be sure as I won't get into the give until this evening. If I do combine (nuc frames into a brood box above the q- hive and newspaper) should I allow the nuc to draw new comb and lay eggs before I do so and should I vape them for varroa as well? Alternatively could I simply leave the swarm in th enuc to overwinter? Thank you for any help you can afford me.

You need to make absolutely sure the queen less hive is indeed so.
I would let the nuc establish itself. Plenty of time

 

[XYZ]

Is your nuc big enough?

I caught a swarm a little bigger than a football (maybe closer to a basketball?) in a 6 frame nuc, then that night when I got home had to stick them in a full 11 frame brood box. Only a few days later when I checked on them, they were bursting out of that. I added a shallow super. I didn't think I had a queen in there but 6 days after I housed them, they drew out 10/11 brood frames of comb and she laid up at least 3. Also, the super I added had 9 frames drawn of comb.

How certain are you that you have no queen? Did you do anything like stick a frame with eggs in to determine if they would draw out QCs?

 

[Jonnyl]

That's what I was thinking. How long should I let things go?

 

[Jonnyl]

I looked into the q- hive a week past Monday and she was there. I always see her as she is marked. Then on Saturday she was gone, no eggs but plenty bees. One really long capped supercedure cell and nothing else. I thought I must have hurt/killed her as she was only a year old and laying well and the bees were taking steps to rectify it. However I then went in on Monday to see if the capped cell was doing ok and it's been torn down. I placed a frame of BIAS inside to insure myself and closed up. Yesterday whilst outside making up frames I noticed the swarm. I can't think they've come from either of my hives but so close to the hives I'm not sure. I'm flummoxed. I think Erichalfbee is right and I shall wait a little time to act. I'm just concerned they won't have enough room in the nuc. I have a spare box but no floor or stand.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Order your full size kit

They should be ok for a few days

Or knock up a floor. It doesn’t need a mesh for now.
A stand is simple to cobble out of breeze blocks

 

[Hebeegeebee]

If they are OK in the nuc, remember that bee numbers will reduce to a degree until new brood emerges.

I suspect that the 'queenless' colony actually has one somewhere!

You can pop in a test frame to be sure; provided there is no disease you are concerned about, you can always whip it back a few days later!

 

[XYZ]

I looked into the q- hive a week past Monday and she was there. I always see her as she is marked. Then on Saturday she was gone, no eggs but plenty bees. One really long capped supercedure cell and nothing else. I thought I must have hurt/killed her as she was only a year old and laying well and the bees were taking steps to rectify it. However I then went in on Monday to see if the capped cell was doing ok and it's been torn down. I placed a frame of BIAS inside to insure myself and closed up. Yesterday whilst outside making up frames I noticed the swarm. I can't think they've come from either of my hives but so close to the hives I'm not sure. I'm flummoxed. I think Erichalfbee is right and I shall wait a little time to act. I'm just concerned they won't have enough room in the nuc. I have a spare box but no floor or stand.

Yeah my bad I misread your initial post.

Do you have a clear crown board in your 14x12 nuc just to see how full they are?

When I got the nuc back home, I opened my boot and lifted it out. I took the roof off and loads of bees had made their way through the duct tape on the crown board and were just sitting freely.
Slightly concerning as they were in my boot

 

[Jonnyl]

No clear crown board on the nuc. I do however have another empty 14x12 nuc box. Perhaps split them and over winter both? Still time to raise a queen and get her mated? Possible?

 

[Erichalfbee]

No clear crown board on the nuc. I do however have another empty 14x12 nuc box. Perhaps split them and over winter both? Still time to raise a queen and get her mated? Possible?

You want to split the swarm?

 

[Jonnyl]

After a couple of weeks why not. Instead of putting them in a full hive as I already have the poly box ready? You see a friend has land and she would like bees so I could use the nucs to start hives there early next spring. Is this doable or would it compromise the chances of over wintering successfully? Thanks

 

[Murox]

Where is the 2nd Queen coming from ? how will you access the positive/negative traits of the swarm Q ? Have a think about timings - Q and mating, drones and weather changes, pollen and nectar sources and so on. Are you planning to supplement with syrup and pollen sub? When does your main summer flow end ? When does the weather generally change ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

After a couple of weeks why not. Instead of putting them in a full hive as I already have the poly box ready? You see a friend has land and she would like bees so I could use the nucs to start hives there early next spring. Is this doable or would it compromise the chances of over wintering successfully? Thanks

Because you need lots of young nurse bees to bring on a split.
You achieve this when making a nuc by putting in a couple of frames of emerging brood.
The swarm needs all its bees to draw new wax and look after the new larvae, the first of which will not be emerging for three weeks. By the time you have a hive strong enough to split the year is going on, forage is dropping off and the bees are on the verge of winter preps.
I wouldn’t split them but of course it’s your choice

 

[Jonnyl]

Of course. I'll leave them to it. If it does get too crowded I can always remove some eggs or brood from the nuc. Can you tell me if its wise to vape a poly nuc and if so do you simply vape from under the omf? Thank you all again for your advice.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I vape all my swarms 3/4 days after hiving
Under omf use less Apibioxal

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Of course. I'll leave them to it. If it does get too crowded I can always remove some eggs or brood from the nuc. Can you tell me if its wise to vape a poly nuc and if so do you simply vape from under the omf? Thank you all again for your advice.

Vape from under the OMF - knock up a quick Eke which fits over the Varrox which you can sit on an neighbouring hive roof, close up the nuc (any bees out foraging will get a dose of the dust from the others when they return) pop it on the eke, once vaping is conplete, move the nuc back to it's stand and open up

 

[Jonnyl]

Vape from under the OMF - knock up a quick Eke which fits over the Varrox which you can sit on an neighbouring hive roof, close up the nuc (any bees out foraging will get a dose of the dust from the others when they return) pop it on the eke, once vaping is conplete, move the nuc back to it's stand and open up

Thsnks for advice you guys and especially for the pictures JBM.
Now, I'm home. The swarm came from my allegedly q- hive. However, theres no sign of queen cells in it? So. I have the nuc on a worker entrance which is bearding (perhaps too many bees in it) and presumably a queen inside. Do I let them get on with drawing out frames and leave them another couple of days before vaping them? Do I leave the entrance on worker only? After a week do I then unite them with the q- hive? Job done?

 

[Jonnyl]

And another thing, sorry. I went into the q+ hive and its packed. One frame of eggs and full of honey. One super about to be capped (just added another empty super above the brood. However, I scraped the brood frames with honey to encourage them to move it up which they seem to be doing anyway. In doing so I found qc's,2, with jelly in them, couldnt see larvae though. This queen is two months old. Is it possible she can swarm so soon? So but it's all go here and as I have your attention and value your advice very much please help. Thanks.

 

[Murox]

The Q does not decide to swarm or not, its the workers decision. From what you write it sounds as though they need more space, (they became honey bound ?) and probably the super went on too late.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Have you got a drawn super?
If so put it above the brood and under the QX. Add your other super as planned on top. Take a frame of stores out of the brood and put a frame of foundation right in the middle of the box. Destroy the queen cells and look again in three days. I had one just the same and the ploy worked.