Hives for bees not honey for me!

[bjosephd]

Afternoon all!

So, I'm doing my research to hopefully hit the ground running as a new beekeeper spring 2015... as you can imagine, I am in nerd heaven as I read books, websites, forums, online shops, YouTube etc etc. This game really does seem heavenly for geeks like me.

I look after my folks' old 1 acre orchard in Somerset and so have a good site for my bees.

Here is my question... I am not looking to harvest honey, but rather have the happiest, healthiest bees possible, kept in the most natural way possible whilst still having the facility to split hives, control swarms, control health, pollinate the apple trees and Somerset at large, and generally enjoy being an involved and responsible beekeeper.

From my research, and since I don't plan to harvest honey, I am thinking that using a One Size Box method ('Rose' style), with standard national brood bodies, would be the best way forward. This would allow me to give the bees plenty of space and freedom (without QE), grow and split the colonies etc, and still be able to fully inspect - particularly to catch swarm prep QCs etc. I know I could just get a a skep or some-such, but I really am not keen to not be able to control swarming and freak out the neighbours when their chimney starts buzzing!

What do you all think? I reckon this is probably the best way as it allows me to give the bees and their Queen a more 'natural' freedom within hives that I am still able to inspect. Also using 'standard' equipment means I am able to work in sync more with local beekeepers when it comes to nucs etc. (Most it seems use Nationals or Commercial BBs with national supers)

Also if I one day do decide to harvest honey, I am already set up for national supers to slot nicely on top. (Or are there any extractors that fit standard national brood frames?)

I would be really grateful for all your jolly thoughts...

Thanks!

Ben

 

[sussexbaker]

Hiya Ben

It sounds like you're taking a very similar approach to me. After advice from local association beeks I decided to go for a OSB approach, and having looked into it decided to go with standard national poly brood boxes (Insulation/Waterproof/Weight when fully loaded). I read the Rose method book early on and it's the path I intend to follow in terms of hive management.

One of the downsides of not using a QE is that as a beginner I've found it hard enough to spot the queen at times, and when you've got multiple boxes to check it's even harder. But I guess that'll get easier with experience.

As far as harvesting honey goes....my first comment would be that you can harvest from the bees and still leave them plenty to get them through the winter. I've not taken any this year, and I suspect I won't next year, but I certainly hope to going forward. When it comes to extracting I've looked into it and as I understand it at the cheaper end of the market you're more likely to fit a national frame into a tangential extractor. Fitting a national brood frame into a radial extractor requires a wider extractor body, hence additional cost. My plan is to just do cut comb anyway

I'm looking forward to seeing the other responses to your post, hopefully there'll be a few informative ones for me too

Norman

One of the things I wish I'd done differently (apart from actually getting bees a bit earlier in the season) was not getting started with foundationless frames from the start. From a practical point of view when you buy a 'starter' hive you tend to get wired foundation, which isn't as useful making foundationless frames, and when you do move over you suddenly find yourself with lots of spare foundation and not enough frames.

 

[bjosephd]

Hey Norman,

Great to know there's someone else thinking like me! I hear a lot of good things about poly boxes, but just can't bring myself to go that direction - call me old fashioned, or romantic, ha - and the extra weight is a workout I could do with (watch this space for a massive u-turn when I rupture a disc in my spine!).

Do you do the full 'Rose' method as outlined in the book exactly, or an evolved personalised version of your own? I'm assuming it's a book well worth getting.

B

 

[madasafish]

If you don't harvest honey and have a good year - like this year - and a mild winter--- then come spring the boxes will still be full of honey and the bees will swarm and swarm and swarm as they have no room.

Been down that route...if you keep bees in a box, it is NOT natural.

 

[sussexbaker]

I understand the appeal of wood, but then I also understand the appeal of a WBC, what is it about poly boxes that you can't stomach? I have to say I was quite surprised at how much a brood box full of honey weighs (I'm not exactly a small/weak bloke but it's not easy), first time I lifted one I did wonder if I shouldn't have just used supers!

It's only my first year so just building colonies up, but next year I expect to be following a lot more of the advice from the book. I'd certainly recommend it, but then there's a few other books I'd recommend as well (Ted Hooper, Natural Beekeeping by Ross Conrad, the trilogy of Michael Bushs collated wisdom, Getting the Best from your bees by McFawn and Slade are all worth reading).

Norman

 

[bjosephd]

Aha! madasafish, that's interesting... a good warning! And I agree bees in a box is not natural.

Would it make sense to replace frames heavy with honey in early spring with empty frames to avoid said crazy swarm fest? Or even split boxes and make new colonies early in the season to avoid this? OR whack a new brood box in at mid-level early on so they have the space to get laying brood that they lack because of good honey stores?

I thought maybe the 'Rose' method was a good approach for avoiding such things because of the ease of adding boxes and/or splitting colonies.

Maybe also replacing the removed honey filled comb with foundationless frames will keep them busy enough to stop swarming too?

Great information though, it's this sort of counter-intuitive tip that is helpful for us beginners.. i.e. everyone is always feeding their harvested bee hives... whoda thunk that if you don't harvest then you'll end up with 'too much honey' problems!

B

 

[bjosephd]

Hey sussex baker,

I know, I certainly don't really have a fully justified reason to avoid poly boxes, I just find them pretty ugly and upset my rugged country born and bred sensibilities! Pathetic, I know. Marmite.

I am fully prepared to end up eating my words some day in the future though.
I already like Marmite.

I've also found a site with some half decent looking budget British Cedar parts too... BBs for £16 for example.

WBCs do however seem like a massive pain in the arse! No thanks.

On a sort of side note, I was wondering, whilst looking at pictures online of some crazy high stacked hives (i.e. ladder required), and wonder what happens when the wind really blows. I assume they are stable enough because they are so chuffing heavy? If that is the case, is a high stack of poly's more at risk as they are lighter? Or are all high stacks at risk and you need to have them well sheltered or split them down before hive 911 happens at a windy 3am!

Also yes, I was planning/hoping to get going with foundationless frames (or a good 50% maybe) same as you wish you had. I'm unlikely to get a 'starter hive' package as I will end up with a super or two and super frames, which is no use to me while I go down the OSB route. I'll probably go down the budget British Cedar route and get the pieces I require, maybe enough for a starter hive, and another hive ready to take a swarm when/if the original gets busy. So maybe purchase 4 brood boxes, enough for two hives (2 BBs each), at least have that ready at the beginning of the season... sound about right?

B

 

[user 6228]

Hey sussex baker,

I know, I certainly don't really have a fully justified reason to avoid poly boxes, I just find them pretty ugly and upset my rugged country born and bred sensibilities! Pathetic, I know. Marmite.

I am fully prepared to end up eating my words some day in the future though.
I already like Marmite.

I've also found a site with some half decent looking budget British Cedar parts too... BBs for £16 for example.

WBCs do however seem like a massive pain in the arse! No thanks.

On a sort of side note, I was wondering, whilst looking at pictures online of some crazy high stacked hives (i.e. ladder required), and wonder what happens when the wind really blows. I assume they are stable enough because they are so chuffing heavy? If that is the case, is a high stack of poly's more at risk as they are lighter? Or are all high stacks at risk and you need to have them well sheltered or split them down before hive 911 happens at a windy 3am!

Also yes, I was planning/hoping to get going with foundationless frames (or a good 50% maybe) same as you wish you had. I'm unlikely to get a 'starter hive' package as I will end up with a super or two and super frames, which is no use to me while I go down the OSB route. I'll probably go down the budget British Cedar route and get the pieces I require, maybe enough for a starter hive, and another hive ready to take a swarm when/if the original gets busy. So maybe purchase 4 brood boxes, enough for two hives (2 BBs each), at least have that ready at the beginning of the season... sound about right?

B

If you are interested in natural and healthy .. you could try selecting a hive that matches the the heat loss of their natural habitat...

 

[sussexbaker]

Hiya

WBCs do seem a pain in the arse, but you get the double wall insulation and they look like 'proper' bee hives. TBH poly hives have more of a 'look' to them then bog standard wood boxes, and don't forget you'll be painting them, my wife did suggest Police Box Blue as there's a resemblance to a TARDIS.

Paynes (and I'm sure most of the other suppliers) do single brood box starters without supers, just works out a little bit cheaper. The advice I was given was that ideally you want to start with 2 or 3 colonies as it gives you more options when something goes wrong. I got two hives, with a spare broodbox for each one. I ended up buying another two broodboxes to go with each one so that I had capacity to deal with a big growth in colony size (though I didn't expect to). It is getting close to sale season if you keep looking!

A poly brood box weighs about 2.3kg, which is fairly similar to a DN4 full of honey, so most of the weight of a hive will be honey. When the wind blows (cue dreadful flash backs to the trauma of 1980's childhoods) it's the honey that'll keep them in place! But I don't trust that and have straps around my hives and stand, although last years winds managed to shift a 12'x8' greenhouse several inches into my oil tank!

The only good thing about going foundationless late is that I do have some KBS foundation spare, which is currently sitting in my living room making it smell wonderful.

Norman

 

[bjosephd]

Hey derekm,

Ha, yes, I know, it's a fair point... I'm trying to get the best of both worlds and so there's going to be a modicum of give and take here and there... it's just a matter of deciding what to give and what to take. A material that matches nature, or an insulation that mimics their natural habitat etc... but then that might take me down the WBC route! blergh!

As madasafish said above, keeping bees in a box at all is not really natural.

It's quite a balancing act, and you make a fair point!

B

 

[bjosephd]

Hey sussexbaker,

I love the TARDIS idea. I have a mate who could probably build me a proper TARDIS roof too! I wonder if that means the interior dimensions of the hive will be significantly more than the exterior dimensions...

I've just replicated the Paynes softwood deal with Solway's British Cedar, and it's come in about £40 cheaper (CORRECTED), frames, foundation and all... not bad.

Hope I don't get into trouble for 'advertising'... I promise I have no vested interest in any beekeeping manufacturer!

I wonder if the next hive fad will be aerodynamic hives...

"Introducing the new BEE-BLADE, aerodynamic wing shaped hive sections on a rotating base that turns to face the wind and can take up to gale force 10!"

maybe not

 

[bjosephd]

Whoops... I mean £40 cheaper.

 

[itma]

... I am thinking that using a One Size Box method ('Rose' style), with standard national brood bodies, would be the best way forward. …

I hope you realise what sort of weights you would have to shift in order to do each brood inspection.
The reason that National 'shallows' are smaller than the 'deep' boxes normally used as brood boxes, is that their weight as individual units is manageable - even when full. And you may be lifting to shoulder height …
A full standard National deep is really quite heavy - and you have to handle it smoothly without bumping, otherwise you will be getting even more 'assistance' from the bees (who never ever make things as easy as handling empty boxes in a classroom).

My strong advice would be to learn 'conventional' beekeeping first (learning to 'keep' - as in retain, without swarming or expiring - bees through all the seasons).
After you understand not just what happens but perhaps something of WHY things happen and why the conventional method is the conventional method, THEN by all means strike out in an individual direction.
If you decide to dig your own hole, you need to realise that you are distancing yourself from some (if not all) of the assistance that you will be needing in the early days (and months).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would it make sense to replace frames heavy with honey in early spring with empty frames to avoid said crazy swarm fest?

And what would you do with the honey in the frames then - throw it away? probably be inedible anyway if you have been a respossible beekeeper and treated for varroa in the autumn
Realistically you can keep bees in the rural idyllic way you want and harvest honey - you just need to learn to leave enough for them to survive the winter without feeding (just like my grandfather used to do - but that was a ration scam so he could keep the sugar to bottle pears in!) bees will want to swarm whatever and it will be much easier to cope with that using a conventional hive setup than anything else.
And as for 'crazy high stacked hives - that's why you harvest the honey - far too much on there for the bees!
Not sure whether you were saying the Paynes softwood kit is cheaper (probable) than the Solway cedar or vice versa if the cedar is cheaper you'll find it's the cheap chinese 'cedar' version (it comes with a bamboo queen excluder)
QX in/out - that's your choice - that's fuel for a whole thread itself don't go there!

I'm with ITMA on this one - learn the conventional basics, gain experience then go and 'dig your own hole'

 

[bjosephd]

Yep, it all makes sense itma, thanks for your comment... that's of course why I am on the forum and asked the question in the first place... in order to not dig myself a hole. So don't panic, I am a long way from getting bees and/or alienating myself (I hope) from assistance.

My understanding is that the 'conventional' method is primarily about harvesting honey, and 'keeping' the bees happy and healthy for that end. As I am, at this stage, not looking to harvest honey, I was wondering if this approach might be a better way to purely 'keep' bees without harvesting honey and allowing them to pollinate the orchard as a bonus. What is the 'conventional' method for doing this? OR is it EXACTLY the same?

If the answer is "no don't do it", then it was worth me posting and asking. sussexbaker seems to be doing ok on this system from what I can tell.

B

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My understanding is that the 'conventional' method is primarily about harvesting honey, and 'keeping' the bees happy and healthy for that end. As I am, at this stage, not looking to harvest honey, I was wondering if this approach might be a better way to purely 'keep' bees without harvesting honey and allowing them to pollinate the orchard as a bonus. What is the 'conventional' method for doing this? OR is it EXACTLY the same?

I would say the methods are almostexactly the same apart from in you chosen method you take a little less honey off - remember orchard pollination is only a few weeks in spring - after that they will need to forage to keep alive as well as lay down stores.
I suppose my answer is - if you keep your bees 'happy' they will give you honey whether you want it or not!

 

[theeggman]

to the forum bjosephd.
You're going about things the correct way, you've asked a sensible question and are prepared to listen to the advice/ answers. As said elsewhere, gain some experience with a "standard setup" first and then try other things if you wish. That way if things don't work out you'll see the problems earlier and be able to sort them.

again.

Tim.

 

[bjosephd]

Hi jenkinsbrynmair,

Ha, love the ration scam... maybe I should make preparations for WWIII!

So it sounds like you HAVE to harvest honey weather you want to or not?! I thought maybe those spare honey frames could be used for making up stores for nucs/new colonies? Good to know that the varroa treatment will make things inedible! Obvious really!

It's quite possible that I'd get to the end of my first season and think.. boooo... wish I could harvest all that honey...!

Yep, I'm aware apple blossom is short and at the beginning of the season. It's more that it's a nice bit of land for the hives rather than that being their soul food source. The trees are always reasonably well pollinated anyway. I'm planning on planting a load of wild flowers in the open areas too. Every little helps.

The Solway hives are the cheaper, and certainly not Chinese "The Cedar has been sourced from sustainable forests locally in Britiain. The timber is then saw milled by ourselves on-site and seasoned."

B

 

[Davelin]

If you start with nucs you may not have any honey to harvest in your first year anyway, quite possibly you will, but it's not guaranteed.

I'm with ITMA and JBM here. Don't make life more difficult from the start.
Learn how to use a conventional hive, take as much or as little honey off as you have to.

PS: Those who think a WBC looks like a proper hive also think The Rocket looks like a proper railway locomotive.

 

[bjosephd]

Thanks Tim theeggman,

Yep... I'm all ears (eyes?). And I'm pleased to be getting engagement from people... so thank you all!

To be honest, unless my (potential) colonies grow crazy big then I guess they won't get bigger than a double brood anyway, so doesn't even really become a 'rose' method until I put a 3rd on. Nor does it become 'conventional' until I put a QE on and a super on top!

Until then, well, I have neither.. and both!

It all depends, I guess, on how quickly my colony/ies grow. How crazy big can a colony potentially grow from donated local nuc in the Somerset countryside if it's a good season?

Oh, Davelin might have just answered that... but I'm interested what can happen in a best case, most growth, scenario.

Also, my plan, with not harvesting, was for just what you said Davelin... to not make life more difficult. I thought I could concentrate at first on the bee 'keeping' rather than honey harvesting also. Seemed like this method was a good solid way of doing this as you can grow the available brood area and general space enough to slow down any swarming plans. But I might very well be wrong. Also especially that bees tend to want to swarm whatever it is you do... as I've been told by a beekeeper I spoke to when I first started researching...

"Remember... the bees haven't read the books"

(or was it "The problem is... the bees haven't read the books")

B