Hives for bees not honey for me!

[theeggman]

As far as I know from reading the forum some beeks on here don't use QE's BUT do use 'shallows' supers. That way the Q can expand upwards and IF you need to take honey off it's in a manageable format.

I currently run 14x12's so the Q "should" have enough room in the BB and not need to go upstairs. Keep reading and listening and asking!!

Tim.

 

[pargyle]

Well... I'm the resident nut case who started out nearly four years ago with something close to your position ... indeed, I was even further into the dark side and had two Top Bar Hives under construction.

But ... whilst I survived those early forays and I learnt very quickly .. if you ask me now would I start out down that route ? Probably not ... I still have my original Long Deep Hive and I love it .. but I also have two Paynes poly hives (14 x 12) and I really like these as well. I've always been foundationless and it has never been a problem - you don't have to buy frames ready made up with foundation - the least expensive way is buying second quality frames in the various sales and make them up yourself with just a starter strip of wax or a wedge of timber.

I think the 'one box' size argument has been had on here a few times if you look in the archives .. there are pros and cons but I have to say that the convenience of honey supers is a very major plus for the 'conventional' route.

I don't treat my bees for varroa and they are healthy and mite levels are low but again .. it's a much harder path to follow for a new beekeeper and the more conventional methods including thymol and OA treatments are an easier and possibly safer route.

As other people have said .. if you keep bees then the odds are that you will have a honey harvest at some point, bees don't stop when there is still forage about and space in the hive to store it .. it's a bit of a silly position to even suggest you won't take any of the surplus off. My bees are left with enough honey to see them through the winter (a 14 x 12 brood box full of stores will generally be enough to get them through to spring - another good reason to go for the 14 x 12 size).

All my hives are also heavily insulated ... to be purist about wood (and I love wood) is flying in the face of all of the evidence that suggests well insulated hives do have significant advantages for the bees ... both in winter and in summer ~ think, bees use energy for all of their in-hive activity so if they don't have to expend their energy heating or cooling the hive as you have provided a well insulated space for them to live in then it stands to reason they will have an easier time of it.

So ... don't be close minded ... I know DerekM's Kingspan hives are not the prettiest addition to an apiary but ... you could clad them with a thin layer of cedar if they really offended you ... complete with an apex roof if you want to make life difficult.

However, the advice given already to learn about bees, do the course, explore conventional beekeeping methods and keep an open mind about more off the wall ideas is very sound. This forum's archives are now a whole winter's reading ... the books will teach you the basics but there are so many things that the books don't tell you ... and reading this forum from end to end will give you such an amazing insight into what CAN and often DOES happen it will serve you in very good stead for the future. I've learnt so much more from the variety and quality of beekeepers on here in the last couple of years ... it's beyond value.

 

[bjosephd]

Tim,

Originally I was actually looking at using 14x12 BBs like you. I then drifted towards the idea of using commercial BBs with national supers. Then after discovering the concept of a OSB system I found myself considering using all standard national BBs, rather than the random size of Rose boxes & frames only provided by Thorne, and nobody else uses them so slotting locally provided nucs would be a pain (even though the national BBs would certainly be heavier!).

I thought the OSB idea would simplifying my purchasing and beekeeping as all boxes can be used in all positions, rather than having spare supers and needing to buy more BBs or vice versa.

So... where am I now?! Hmmm... currently thinking stick with national BBs, use a double brood if required, and then national supers for stores.

OR

Use 14x12 BBs and national supers.

Both of which can be purchased as budget British Cedar (commercial BBs not available in budget format).

But I do like the sound of the OSB approach, but it might not be relevant until I know how good my (very green) area of Somerset is for building up colonies... they might never require more than a single brood box anyway... I haven't gone round surveying the local flora with a clip board yet! But we have a lot of pasture, a lot of ancient hedgerows, and gradually more and more miscanthus (but not sure if that flowers in a bee friendly way). Sadly Somerset lost 50% of it's orchards over the past 50 years (although Thatchers are doing a lot to change that having planted 50,000 young apple trees a couple of years ago... so that puts them up to about 400+ acres of orchards... I'll see if google maps tells me how far away as the bee flies!

I'm rambling!

And just noticed there is a massive post above that I haven't read yet!

Thanks pargyle!... I'll get reading and comment accordingly!

B

 

[enrico]

Hi, as regards the honey harvest.... Bees are not unique in collecting more food stores than they need but their efficiency in doing so is truly amazing. A good hive can produce at least 100 lbs of honey in a season. They will never use that amount in the following season. So.....naturally 'man' has decided that to remove the excess is neither unfair or in anyway detrimental to bees. But.....before modern hives it was necessary to kill or drive the bees away to successfully do that. We now have modern hives that means that is no longer a problem. ...... Don't be afraid to take honey, just be grateful that they are such efficient little beasts......welcome
E

 

[Davelin]

If you are near hedgerows your bees should do well. Most of my crop comes from hawthorn in May and bramble in July.

 

[bjosephd]

enrico!
Hello!
It's not so much that I'm afraid to take the honey, it's just a big monster sticky, extracting, bottling, harvesting faff... at least at the beginning when I want to concentrate on looking after the bees. Also extracting toys add another cost... although I know the trick is to work with your local association who will have all the gadgets required.

Maybe I should start a thread on "lazy/budget honey extract"... maybe cut comb is the best for that? Although that sounds like seriously sticky times!

People... after that comment PLEASE don't tell me off and say if you are lazy then you shouldn't be keeping bees at ALL! That's not the point, I just wanted to concentrate on one thing at a time and be more of a bee 'keeper' rather than honey farmer.

Davelin
PLENTY of hawthorn and bramble here... so that's April (apple), May (hawthorne), July (bramble) covered... so now I need to sort that goddam June gap!

 

[enrico]

Lime is for the June gap!
I only wish you fancied a day out in the Welsh marches when it comes to honey extraction. It really doesn't have to be any of the 'mess' you suggest and I would love to show you the magic of it all! Like others on this forum I have been keeping bees for years but every harvest I stare in wonder as I open the honey tap and watch this amazing liquid flow......oh heaven!
Get bees, get hooked, the honey will come when you first dip your finger into that Virgin comb!
E

 

[bjosephd]

pargyle...

Thanks for your big post!

Yep, I've seen a few one size box threads on here, but couldn't find anything about that as an approach for someone who wanted to just keep bees and not harvest honey. I felt that without the honey harvest factor something else might come up, or be more acceptable, or even preferable. It seems there is still much controversy even without the 'harvest factor'.

I'm of course open minded, or I wouldn't be posting at all. I'll try and go and have a look and play with some poly hives locally, see if I can overcome my material-ism!

Thanks for the thoughts.

B

 

[bjosephd]

enrico!

Where in the Welsh Marches? Might just be a drive away if it doesn't clash with work! Probably gonna drive up to the Black Mountains this week for a bit of a walk and wander anyway.

Oh... Shropshire... bit of a mission maybe...

Was pressing apples just the other weekend... a bit of family cider making from our apples... cider by christmas!

Damn it... I think the hundreds of acres of Thatchers cider apple orchards are 5 or so miles away... but less than 10. If only the bees could be bothered to go that extra mile or so!

 

[enrico]

I am in knighton. If you are ever passing ( bit difficult to just pass through knighton as it is on the road to no where!) call in, pm me first!
That is the beauty of having bees in modern hives that can be moved. You can take them to the apples!
E

 

[Swarm]

every harvest I stare in wonder as I open the honey tap and watch this amazing liquid flow......oh heaven!
Get bees, get hooked, the honey will come when you first dip your finger into that Virgin comb!
E

100%
Watching the buckets fill, still amazed that little half inch insects collect ALL THAT.

 

[Fatbee]

It's good that your initial reaction is that honey extraction is not your number one priority - too many new beeks I see that's all they go on about and fail to understand the bee. I built up to a sustainable number (4) by splits so did not have huge surpluses to begin with. It also allowed me to experiment with different approaches to see what works best for me and not panic if something goes wrong with one colony. What I do is use consistent equipment so standard nationals and supers. This year I have run brood and a half; double brood and reduced double brood (8 frames instead of 11) with the vacant space dummied out with insulation. And my conclusion of what's best? I still don't know! That's for mulling over this winter. But what I do know if you have an enquiring mind - which you seem to have - is you learn far more by observing what the bees do when you do certain interventions (and when you start out some will be good and some will be bad!)
You will find your own way and don't be swayed by what is necessarily best for somebody else is best for you.
As for honey extracting get on it! It's great fun. If you do it earlier enough in season allows time for bees to still top up their winter stores.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It's good that your initial reaction is that honey extraction is not your number one priority

We see some on here who are so obsessed with getting a honey harvest the first year that they make a complete mess in trying to. at least by setting your sights low, if there isn't much the first year there will be no tears - and if there is - Bonus!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I know DerekM's Kingspan hives are not the prettiest addition to an apiary but ... you could clad them with a thin layer of cedar if they really offended you

Or just not bother and have a layer or two of 50mm kingspan over the crownboard of your cedar nationals - mine don't seem to mind

 

[bjosephd]

Ah thanks Fatbee...

I'm pleased you feel there is a value in approaching the bee before the honey... I thought so too, but wondered if people were thinking I was some sort of freak to not be some kind of honey monster. But some people have cats and dogs, and you can't get honey or eggs out of them, or ride them! But they're still pretty cool to have around.

It's maybe more like playing Sim City, but with bees! And I ain't ever got honey out of my laptop!

But yes... I will get onto the honey once I'm set up proper I'm sure.

I like your idea of reduced brood with dummied insulation... that sounds quite witty when it comes to wooden hives.

I hope I can get going nice and early next season... it's been a damn shitty year or 2 for various reasons... I could do with a little joy and nerdy fascination in 2015.

Thanks

B

 

[pargyle]

Or just not bother and have a layer or two of 50mm kingspan over the crownboard of your cedar nationals - mine don't seem to mind

I agree but it rather depends on whether you have the cedar hives to start with .... but if you have it's a good starting point before you add Derek's Hive Bonnets .....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

some people have cats and dogs, and you can't get honey or eggs out of them,

Can't you?! haven't you ever seen dog eggs - mind you you don't see them often now - people don't give their dogs bones like they used to.

 

[user 6228]

Or just not bother and have a layer or two of 50mm kingspan over the crownboard of your cedar nationals - mine don't seem to mind

With a crown board layer like you mention you hardly get any benefit after the first 25mm. No problem adding more but it doesn't really do anything as the losses to sides then dominate.

 

[mbc]

Bees die collecting honey, would you shoot ducks and not eat them?

Honestly, bees like a bit of turnover and are generally healthier for a measured bit of sustainable harvesting. Notions of conventional beekeepers harming their bees through stealing their honey, or the bees being better off for not having been robbed, are generally misguided poppycock imho.

 

[user 6228]

Bees die collecting honey, would you shoot ducks and not eat them?
...

Then waste not, but value and honour every single drop, each a lifetimes work.