Hive autopsy

[BeeJayBee]

I'll decide what to do once I have a better understanding of what happened but I can only think it was the death of the queen. Thanks all.

I don't think you should waste any time in getting back to the seller and asking for your money back. You've done nothing wrong and, as a new beekeeper, you shouldn't be expected to work out what's happened to the colony.

You bought what you were told was a live colony of bees inside a second hand box - that isn't what you've got. If it was anything other than bees I'm sure you (and anybody else) would be straight back to the seller demanding a full refund. You should only be paying for the box, because even the frames are a waste of money.

Yours is a very sad story, but I'm sorry to say that it reinforces what we tell all our new beekeepers. They should take somebody more experienced along with them when they buy bees, and should always look inside the box. If the weather's bad on the day it's all been arranged, then go another day. A good seller won't mind.

 

[Levitt53]

Ok I've made arrangements with the vendor. I'll burn the frames and bees and blast the box with a blow torch. Hopefully my local apiary will be able to get me a swarm and I'll try again that way. Live and learn. Thanks.

 

[Obee1]

Ok I've made arrangements with the vendor. I'll burn the frames and bees and blast the box with a blow torch. Hopefully my local apiary will be able to get me a swarm and I'll try again that way. Live and learn. Thanks.

So are you getting any money back?

 

[Davelin]

Ok I've made arrangements with the vendor. I'll burn the frames and bees and blast the box with a blow torch. Hopefully my local apiary will be able to get me a swarm and I'll try again that way. Live and learn. Thanks.

I would advise that you try to obtain a nuc from a trusted supplier in your local branch rather than a swarm.
A swarm is an unknown quantity and some can be very strong and aggressive; not the sort of colony you would want to start with.

 

[chrisb]

So are you getting any money back?

 

[Levitt53]

No chance of getting any help from local branch as I didn't do their course. They've told me that already. They have too many from their beginners course to help first.

 

[Erichalfbee]

No chance of getting any help from local branch as I didn't do their course. They've told me that already. They have too many from their beginners course to help first.

That's a pity. Maybe there is somebody here on the forum near you. So sorry you had such a poor introduction to such a wonderful hobby.

 

[Arfermo]

Nothing particularly wrong in having a mix of Hoffman frames and ordinary deep national frames but with plastic spacers. That is what spacers are for - to adjust the spacing. I and others on this forum (including HM I think I recall) use castellations in the brood boxes and that takes care of any spacing issues anyway. There are also plastic hoffman converters that you can nail onto to the ordinary deep national frames if you wish. I use 11 space castellations but there a number of other spacing but stick with 11 spacers in the BBs as the others are for the supers and extra honey production, less wax and better extraction.
As for the attitude of your BKA, strange and very mean minded. Personally, I have never done a course at all, but then I started quite a few years ago. However, as you are a member of your BKA, surely there are some chatty people there to chat issues you have? Most beekeepers will chat about bees all day!!! At the very least go along to a club apiary visit and find a useful contacts there – there has to be at least one open and friendly bod who will offer advice or maybe even some mentoring?
Best of luck and be more wary of dodgy offers in the future.

 

[Cussword]

As for the attitude of your BKA, strange and very mean minded. At the very least go along to a club apiary visit and find a useful contact there – there has to be at least one open and friendly bod who will offer advice or maybe even some mentoring?
.

 

[Levitt53]

I've got a couple of contacts so will pursue these and see what happens.

 

[Arfermo]

Ok I've made arrangements with the vendor. I'll burn the frames and bees and blast the box with a blow torch. Hopefully my local apiary will be able to get me a swarm and I'll try again that way. Live and learn. Thanks.

Swarms can be dodgy as they often carry diseases that you might prefer to not have. What is certain is that they will be carrying phoretic varroa and since there will NIL brood, that is a good time to treat with oxalic. The best opportunity in fact and not to be missed. Oxalic treatment comes in a variety of forms - trickled syrup formulation or sublimation. The latter method is becoming much more popular as it is significantly more efficient and kinder to the bees than the alternative and less risky than trying to make you own liquid concoction. For sublimation, you will need an evaporating tool (Varrox is best imho) and is available from bigT at a price but can be obtained at the BBKA Spring Convention (£100 last year as against some £140 elsewhere). You would also need the oxalic crystals. The only "legal" crystals as of last year is Apibioxal but most old hands will almost certainly use their old stock of oxalic dehydrate crystals which are now only officially usable only for sterilising equipment and boxes etc. The cost of a £5 Trade Day visit this year can be more than offset by the savings on the many other discounted purchases on the day, if you get there early enough - by 13:00 hrs on the Friday. Another worthwhile purchase at the Convention is syrup feed (Ambrosia or Belgosuc) and Apiguard, both of which you will need for keeping the bees you acquire in good fettle throughout the year.
Long winded response but meant with best intentions that some might add to or disagree with.

 

[chrisb]

As for the attitude of your BKA, strange and very mean minded. .

They should be there for help and advise and NOT based on if you scratch your bum the right way and the way they want you to. witch makes then appear to be the plural of what they want you to scratch !

 

[pargyle]

Swarms can be dodgy as they often carry diseases that you might prefer to not have. What is certain is that they will be carrying phoretic varroa and since there will NIL brood, that is a good time to treat with oxalic. .....


. The cost of a £5 Trade Day visit this year can be more than offset by the savings on the many other discounted purchases on the day......

Another worthwhile purchase at the Convention is syrup feed (Ambrosia or Belgosuc) and Apiguard, both of which you will need for keeping the bees you acquire in good fettle throughout the year......


Long winded response but meant with best intentions that some might add to or disagree with.

Well .. not much there that I would agree with Afermo !!

1. Swarms are not often disease ridden mite infected colonies ... the ones I've seen and collected have been really nice LOCAL bees that have formed strong colonies very quickly that have gone on to be good bees. The post swarm comb building is something of a miracle to watch and even the bigger swarms seem to be reasonably easy to handle for a beginner, as they always seem to be intent on getting on with building their colony. Swarms can be free or at least of little cost compared to the cost of a nuc it's a no brainer. Even if they turn out to be a duffer you can still buy in a good queen for £30 or so and you then have better bees for a fraction of the cost of a nuc.

2. I would not bother treating a swarm for varroa until it has built up - even then I consider that colonies should not be treated just by rote .. check whether they need treatment before inflicting it upon them - therefore, in the first few months of beekeeping a Varrox is not really necessary and given a few months beekeeping the OP may decide that it's something that can be made for little cost and do the same job. Apiguard (or any other treatments) will not be needed with any luck until the Autumn .. if indeed they are needed then if OA by sublimation is the way to go. OA crystals are still readily available on ebay for a few pounds .. no laws about selling them seem to be enforced yet.

3.Bee feed such as Belgsuc and Ambrosia are a waste of money - sugar syrup does the job at a much reduced cost but if your are lucky and your bees store enough honey in the autumn you may not need to feed them ... or at least if you do then it's a small cost that can be spent as and when at your local Lidl, Aldi, Farmfoods etc.

So .. not the things, in my opinion, for a new beekeeper to spend their money on .. by all means go to the trade days, hives and frames are often much cheaper and you WILL need those, deals on smokers, bee suits and other essentials are often to be had but try and avoid buying the gimmicks and must haves .. because you will probably just leave them in your bee shed.

You need - hives, feeders, hive tool, suit, smoker and some bees .. you can make some of the kit you need such as hive stands, crown boards and roofs, save your money where you can - it's an expensive hobby at times and you will always need more BOXES and FRAMES ... concentrate on the essentials.

 

[Plenty of honey]

Well .. not much there that I would agree with Afermo !!

1. Swarms are not often disease ridden mite infected colonies ... the ones I've seen and collected have been really nice LOCAL bees that have formed strong colonies very quickly that have gone on to be good bees. The post swarm comb building is something of a miracle to watch and even the bigger swarms seem to be reasonably easy to handle for a beginner, as they always seem to be intent on getting on with building their colony. Swarms can be free or at least of little cost compared to the cost of a nuc it's a no brainer. Even if they turn out to be a duffer you can still buy in a good queen for £30 or so and you then have better bees for a fraction of the cost of a nuc.

To this date, i have never caught a diseased swarm, or one that has developed a brood disease a few weeks later. (Chalk brood not included, that is sometimes there, but thats "sortoutable")
I argue that if a colony has made it to swarming stage, and its of reasonable size, its pretty healthy, period!
However that dosent mean i dont check and also put the swarm in a furthest away apiary, just in case but saying that, I've caught feral or wild swarms in all of my apiaries, so sometimes i wonder if its worth the late night moving!
I know bees are known to migrate due to adverse conditions in their current location, but swarms in May and June and some of July are more than likely to be healthy.
Their queen may well be old, but thats another thing to deal with.
Often a smallish swarm builds comb and the queen then lays a couple of frames and dies. This dosent mean it was diseased, its just a queen that wasn't that strong, or is swarming for perhaps her second or third time!
i cover my options and remain open minded. Theres Lots of "guff" talked about it most of the time!!
For me its something i am interested in. If we are ever to hopefully search for bees that have traits like groom mites (ankle biters) and bees that have a tendency to yank out diseased larvae from under sealed brood, and similar for mites, and others we are yet to discover, we should never dismiss this opportunity to try this survivor stock.
Everybody has their own ideas, but bees will evolve. How on earth wild or feral AMM have coped with Varroa so far is the big question.

 

[BeeJayBee]

As for the attitude of your BKA, strange and very mean minded.

Not really, when you think about it. BKAs are run by volunteers, most beekeeping courses are run by only one or two volunteers, and then there's the apiary training and mentoring which is also usually done by only a few willing volunteers.

The courses raise some money for the club as well as getting some new members, because a lot of new beekeepers give up after the first year or two.

Most courses are limited in numbers, based on how many new beekeepers a club can reasonably cope with during the coming season, which in turn is based on the number of volunteers and apiary space etc.. So they're being honest and being realistic in saying they will help the beginners they've trained first, and anybody else who's new to beekeeping has to wait.

They're not raising expectations, and they aren't making rash promises which can be broken if the few volunteers can't meet the commitment.

It does sound mean, though, when it's written down.

Best of luck and be more wary of dodgy offers in the future.

 

[madasafish]

Not really, when you think about it. BKAs are run by volunteers, most beekeeping courses are run by only one or two volunteers, and then there's the apiary training and mentoring which is also usually done by only a few willing volunteers.

The courses raise some money for the club as well as getting some new members, because a lot of new beekeepers give up after the first year or two.

Most courses are limited in numbers, based on how many new beekeepers a club can reasonably cope with during the coming season, which in turn is based on the number of volunteers and apiary space etc.. So they're being honest and being realistic in saying they will help the beginners they've trained first, and anybody else who's new to beekeeping has to wait.

They're not raising expectations, and they aren't making rash promises which can be broken if the few volunteers can't meet the commitment.

It does sound mean, though, when it's written down.

There is a long debate on the subject of training on the SBA website..
http://tinyurl.com/javmg7k


Basically training by volunteers is time consuming, - for the volunteers , often frustrating -for the trainers, and valued by many at its cost to the trained - which is minimal..

 

[Levitt53]

There is a long debate on the subject of training on the SBA website..
http://tinyurl.com/javmg7k


Basically training by volunteers is time consuming, - for the volunteers , often frustrating -for the trainers, and valued by many at its cost to the trained - which is minimal..

Yes I agree with that. They had a lot of people on the basic course who they had to find mentors and bees for. I guess a lot of people on their course is a good thing. Their not very forthcoming with advice though which is a bit frustrating. And only one session that I would be eligible for as a newbee which is one on overwintering in September. I'm booked on that - hope I need it!

 

[mjt68]

OP - there are swarms to be had in Cambridgeshire for sure! Collecting them requires a bit of experience with bees but you could always lay bait hives/swarm traps and see! Make friends with local beeks and I'm sure they wouldn't mind helping you out if a swarm arrives.

Some swarms will be from other beeks but a lot round me (West of Cambridge) are feral in chimneys etc.

If a colony has got to swarming point then it's likely to be big, strong and to have overwintered well. Touch wood, the swarms I've collected have all been healthy. Not all been friendly bees though mind! Not at all suitable for a back garden but if you have an out apiary you can tame and re-queen them there.

As for CBKA, I think the reticence comes from lots of people starting up on their own without much idea of what's involved and then only contacting the association to demand their free bees and to ask for lots of help when they quickly get out of their depth. Generally a nice helpful bunch though! Once you've got a bit more experience you can ask to join the improvers' course (lectures and practicals, leading to Basic Assessment) which I thought was fantastic and learned a lot from!

 

[Levitt53]

Ha ha I wasn't going to attempt to get one myself. I'm not that brave. Thanks for the info about CBKA and swarms. I'm also aware that the person who gets the 'beekeeping advice' e-mails is currently indisposed. He told me that when I chased him up last time. I assumed they would be directed the contact form to someone else but apparently not. I think I'll send them a helpful e-mail to get that changed as I'm probably not the only person who hasn't got a reply.

 

[pargyle]

Ha ha I wasn't going to attempt to get one myself. I'm not that brave. Thanks for the info about CBKA and swarms. I'm also aware that the person who gets the 'beekeeping advice' e-mails is currently indisposed. He told me that when I chased him up last time. I assumed they would be directed the contact form to someone else but apparently not. I think I'll send them a helpful e-mail to get that changed as I'm probably not the only person who hasn't got a reply.

Check out this free bit of the best advice on bait boxes and knock one up.. see if you can beg a bit of really old comb and add a few drops of lemon grass oil or one of those bee lures off ebay (they do attract bees although I'm not sure whether they result in swarms arriving .. if you get the stuff on your hands you will soon know whether there are any bees around !).


https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstr...d=F9F2EC98732411817AA891CFAA842659?sequence=2