Frames from MDF or triplex

[ugcheleuce]

Hello everyone

Does anyone here have any actual experience with using MDF or triplex (plywood) for making frames?

Thanks
Samuel

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[Dadnlad]

I would think ply would delaminate far too easily and mdf isn't renowned for it's moisture resistance ?
Stick with buying frames from suppliers in winter sales they're cheap enough, save your time for the bees

 

[madasafish]

I tried MDF.
Waste of time: they bent...

 

[ugcheleuce]

I tried MDF.
Waste of time: they bent...

Did they bend due to comb weight, or due to poor construction, or due to moisture absorption?

 

[ugcheleuce]

Stick with buying frames from suppliers in winter sales -- they're cheap enough.

Here in NL where I live, frames are not cheaper in winter than in summer. Non-self-spacing frames unassembled will set you back about eur 0.90 per frame, and assembled+wired about eur 1.30 per frame. Frames from dead beekeepers may cost as little as eur 0.50 per frame, but there's great demand, so little supply.

I would think ply would delaminate far too easily and mdf isn't renowned for it's moisture resistance ?

The facts as I'm aware are:

1. The humidity in a hive during brood rearing is 50%-60%. The bees keep the humidity fairly constant, because it affects brood rearing. Of course, during winter the humidity in some parts of the hive may exceed 100%.

2. When you buy MDF/plywood, the ambient humidity will be 10-20%. This means, if you use them in the hive, they will be exposed to a one-time increase in humidity from 10% to 60%.

3. The increase from 10% to 60% humidity will cause the MDF/plywood to thicken about 6%, and lengthen (i.e. in length or width) by about 0.3%. If I understand the science correctly, continuous exposure to such humidity levels do not increase the thickness/length compoundly.

4. The dramatic deteriorisation in MDF/plywood seen when used outside is actually due to contact with water, and not with mere 90% humid air.

http://www.ewp.asn.au/library/downloads/ewpaa_facts_about_pb_and_mdf.pdf

So, in theory, it should be okay.

What attracts me to MDF/plywood is that it's dead flat and available in highly predictable thicknesses. Only very expensive wood is like that.

Samuel

 

[foghornleghorn]

You should be able to get langstroth frames for about 60c delivered flat where you are.

 

[madasafish]

Did they bend due to comb weight, or due to poor construction, or due to moisture absorption?

All three?

 

[ugcheleuce]

You should be able to get langstroth frames for about 60c delivered flat where you are.

Well, I use British National frames, but even if Langstroth... delivered from whom?

 

[foghornleghorn]

Honeypaw and icko are fairly well priced,

 

[nantmoel]

Stay clear of MDF, When I was teaching we had a safety instruction from the local education authority! It really is not nice stuff, in fact its about as bad a dust you can get. As already mentioned its not known for it moisture resistance (I know you can get moisture resistance versions).

 

[8ace]

Stay clear of MDF, When I was teaching we had a safety instruction from the local education authority! It really is not nice stuff, in fact its about as bad a dust you can get. As already mentioned its not known for it moisture resistance (I know you can get moisture resistance versions).

much mdf now is formaldehyde free (the nasty bit) and a lot safer (mainly softwood based) but no good at all for anything hive based or exposed. However, external grades( http://www.medite-europe.com/products/medite-exterior ) are available now but for frame application you would have little strength at all

 

[Finman]

.
I suppose that is too soft in frame making and it bends.

You can do your frames from pine wood. It is not difficult. Spruce is too soft in vertical bars. Wires will soak into wood, if it is soft and you cannot get wires tight. Eylets make extra work and they are not needed with proper wood.

Important is that frame do not have knots. Otherwise they will be curved. Knotless board comes from surface of big trunks. Upper and lower bars you may do from spruce.

Europe buys much timber from Russia nowadays. They surely have knotless board there.

My wife's sister has bought timber in Hamburg from Scandinavia 40 years. Nowadays they buy all timber from Russia. It is cheaper there.

 

[oliver90owner]

Think about it a bit. If there were better options, they would be on sale from suppliers, wouldn't they?

 

[ugcheleuce]

Think about it a bit. If there were better options, they would be on sale from suppliers, wouldn't they?

No, not necessarily. You're forgetting the advantage of being big.

The beekeeping suppliers can buy in bulk, from manufacturers who produce in bulk, who are able to use a wider variety of raw materials (e.g. that still needs processing and machining), with full-time employees doing the work. I only have a limited number of tools, limited access to raw materials, and a limit on my available time.

For example, I do have some scrap wood lying about, which could theoretically become frames. But I don't have a planer, so e.g. any wood that isn't the right thickness and levelness can't be used by me.

In fact, with my available tools, workspace and time, the only wood that I would be able to use to make frames with, is wood that requires very little machining. And that includes MDF and plywood.

For the past two weeks I've been making new hives from wood that I had initially though would be "flat" and "straight", but after some of the hives were built, I realised that the least expensive wood that I can make my own frames with would make those home-made frames more expensive than shop-bought frames (since the cheapest wood in the quantities that I can buy it is unsuitable for making frames).

The reason why suppliers don't use MDF or plywood has nothing to do with the general suitability of MDF and plywood, but with cost. Plywood and MDF are more expensive than the real wood cut-offs that full-time professional frame-makers use to make frames.

 

[ugcheleuce]

.
Wires will soak into wood, if it is soft and you cannot get wires tight. Eyelets make extra work and they are not needed with proper wood.

Oh, I don't mind using eyelets -- I'm used to using them. It will take me fewer than three evenings to put eyelets into all of my hives' frames.

Upper and lower bars you may do from spruce.

Using different types of wood for the different parts of the frame is actually a good idea, thanks.

Knot-free softwood is very expensive in my area.

1 m3 poplar = EUR 1500 (planing costs excluded)
1 m3 douglas = EUR 960 (knotty, and not dead flat)
1 m3 ply = EUR 880 (poplar)
1 m3 MDF = EUR 440

 

[user 6228]

If you coat mdf in epoxy resin you will get moisture proofed frames .

 

[Poly Hive]

When I had my workshop c/w table saw, router table, dust extractor and so on and so on I made supers, brood boxes, manley side bars and bottom bars for the various frames I was using and bought in everything else as it was NOT worth my time to fiddle faddle about with the complexities of making them.

Wood is the ideal material for frames and whilst thinking out the box is good beware of the infamous shortcut!

PH