Foundationless - am I making my life too difficult?

[bingevader]

Our brood boxes are now all foundationless.
We did what you are thinking!
Gradually replaced frames where possible.
No wires needed, no starter strips either.
In fact, come to think of it, most of it wasn't gradual, we added in bare frames when undertaking swarm control.
Yep, they're soft to begin with, but they soon harden up.
For observation, as suggested, just turn them end over end rather than just flipping them.
We've left the supers as wired foundation for ease of extraction for now, but looking at how rigid a full, hardened brood frame is, I'm not sure it will be a problem.

 

[pargyle]

We've left the supers as wired foundation for ease of extraction for now, but looking at how rigid a full, hardened brood frame is, I'm not sure it will be a problem.

It isn't but I find that a single horizontal wire in a super frame does help a lot - you have to spin very gently with new super combs or the middle will throw out. You also need to spin one side gently to reduce the weight and then spin the other side .. then go back and do them both again a bit faster. Assuming, of course, that you don't have a radial extractor and are spinning tangentially. It's the weight of the honey on the inner side of the extractor (plus high speed) that does the damage to new comb. Start slow, have some patience and be prepared turn the frames round and it will be fine. Longer and slower spinning works best.

 

[bingevader]

Ta, will bear that in mind.

 

[Leila]

I'm really glad you've brought this up as it's something I'm toying with as well. I think I've decided to do a mixture of foundation and foundationless and see how it goes, with the aim of going foundationless. In the future I'd like to move to top bar or Warré hives, so it makes sense to me. I'm worried about pesticide contamination and I also like the idea of my bees building comb to suit themselves.

 

[Teebeeaitch]

Why mess around with a centrifuge. If you only have a handful of hives just go for crush and strain. Just keep it basic and simple.

 

[pargyle]

Why mess around with a centrifuge. If you only have a handful of hives just go for crush and strain. Just keep it basic and simple.

Just very wasteful of comb that the bees have gone to a lot of effort to make - yes, you get a lot of wax but .. the cost is at the expense of the bees having to invest time in building new comb ...

I find crush and strain messy and time consuming for anything more that a couple of frames .. but each to their own.

 

[Little John]

I also like the idea of my bees building comb to suit themselves.

Absolutely. The bees get to draw comb to the cell-size they want (rather than what the beekeeper wants), and will draw drone cells as and when they need them, rather than hunting around to draw wild drone comb in any spare nook or cranny they can find.

And - foundation is one less thing a beekeeper needs to purchase. I downloaded a copy of Th0rne's 2017 Catalogue yesterday - and spent an hour browsing through it. I've absolutely nothing against that company - but it's full of 'stuff' that the average hobby beekeeper simply doesn't need. I use a commercially-made smoker, and purchase flat-pack frames for saleable nucs, and mailing cages for queens. Other than those items - pretty-much everything else in my apiary is home-built, or uses re-purposed non-beekeeping items (such as wood cleaner and bamboo skewers).

Keep beekeeping simple ... and low cost.
LJ

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I'm really glad you've brought this up as it's something I'm toying with as well. I think I've decided to do a mixture of foundation and foundationless and see how it goes, with the aim of going foundationless. In the future I'd like to move to top bar or Warré hives, so it makes sense to me. I'm worried about pesticide contamination and I also like the idea of my bees building comb to suit themselves.

Like this image?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/00/4b/89004b42da0508ce679444433deba544.jpg

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[madasafish]

Like this image?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/00/4b/89004b42da0508ce679444433deba544.jpg

Be careful what you wish for.

I have had cross combs in TBHs.

A very very messy job to sort out.

 

[pargyle]

Like this image?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/00/4b/89004b42da0508ce679444433deba544.jpg

Be careful what you wish for.

Yes .. but that box has just top bars with no side bars and no starter strip to guide them - plus, it's clearly just been left for the bees to get on with it for a long time. I suspect it's a Warre and when you look at the box below the frames are very unevenly spaced - it's no wonder they decided to do their own thing.

In some respects, I rather like the idea that they have built what they wanted and I'd be happy to have bees living in their own structure ... BUT ... almost impossible to inspect so as a beekeeper you really can't let them live like that so ... not gonna happen.

Any foundationless beekeeper with half a brain will be checking to see that they are not getting too creative and either give them a frame or two of drawn comb to assist their planning or straighten the comb they have built to get it more into the frames you provide.

It doesn't often end up in a comb disaster - yes, they can build a bit more drone comb than with foundation and sometimes the combs are a bit thicker than 'normal' but as long as you manage what the bees are up to it's really not a problem.

 

[Little John]

Like this image?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/00/4b/89004b42da0508ce679444433deba544.jpg

Be careful what you wish for.

I hope you're not suggesting that sort of mess is in anyway typical of foundationless beekeeping ....

Here's a shot of what happened when I stored some Warre boxes - upside-down - outside, for lack of storage space. Unbeknown to me, a swarm moved in - and with the top bars upside down, there were no starter strips to give the girls a clue:

That's about as 'natural' as comb gets, but it's still nice and regular - although I'd have preferred that they hadn't done this, as it was a waste of their effort.


Crazy comb can just as easily occur when using foundation - if the beekeeper is incompetent:

This example is far more typical of a foundationless comb - if you can see anything wrong with it ... do let me know:

LJ

 

[Mark Young]

I have tried standard foundation, small cell foundation and foundationless.

I don't use any supports in my foundationless frames at all. I can't say I never have any cross combing, but its so rare to be insignificant.

I crush and strain using a stainless fruit press (The same tool is more than twice the price when labelled as a Heather Honey Press)

I think the only true measure for your bee husbandry is if it works for you and your bees are thriving then you are getting it right.

The fact that there are so many opinions from successful Beekeepers can only mean that there is no one way to do things. (Or we are all lunatics)

As a beginner I found natural comb tricky to deal with, some people never had that problem. Only one way to find out my good man!

I am heading toward all hives being foundationless but I am not there yet

 

[Fritillary]

Here's a shot of what happened when I stored some Warre boxes - upside-down - outside, for lack of storage space.
LJ

I read somewhere that bees are most likely to build across the widest dimension in a space they find themselves in - as across the diagonal in your pic. (Like the pic!) Well I don't know if that's true, but since then I've tried to make sure that any free space in eg my topbars is not longer than the top bars (ie width of the hive. (Also use starter strips if the bees seem prone to extravagant curves in their building! Some do some don't it seems - or maybe it's all to do with how fast or urgent the comb building is... or the temperature... or the weather... ....)

 

[Little John]

I read somewhere that bees are most likely to build across the widest dimension in a space they find themselves in - as across the diagonal in your pic. (Like the pic!) Well I don't know if that's true,

Yes - it's absolutely true - which is why most beehives used by 'natural beekeepers' don't provide anywhere near 'natural' conditions. Likewise arranging top-bars at different spacings for brood and stores - this just doesn't happen in nature.

The nearest design I've yet found to achieving how bees prefer to draw their combs is the Bienenkiste Hive used by beekeeping enthusiasts in Germany. In that hive the starter strips run along the length of the box, rather than across it's width. Not perfect - for as you say, the diagonal presents the longest dimension - but it comes close.
LJ

 

[Eyeman]

My fishing wired combs with starter strips are being drawn. The expected drone brood.
Anyone know why they start off with 2 arcs of comb then join them together from the top down?

 

[pargyle]

My fishing wired combs with starter strips are being drawn. The expected drone brood.
Anyone know why they start off with 2 arcs of comb then join them together from the top down?
View attachment 14316

They are bees ... sometimes they start two arcs of comb and sometime they start one off .. I've even seen them start a triple set of combs ... I think it's just what the 'committee' decide upon - or can't decide upon !! They do what they do, they always seem to join them up seamlessly no matter how they start out.

 

[CountryBee]

Doesn't it look beautiful.

If it is in any way re-assuring, I have a similar comb pattern in my brood box frames with starter strips, where the bees have started at two separate points and joined them later.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

They are bees ... sometimes they start two arcs of comb and sometime they start one off .. I've even seen them start a triple set of combs ... I think it's just what the 'committee' decide upon - or can't decide upon !! They do what they do, they always seem to join them up seamlessly no matter how they start out.

Decisions taken by a committee of three members are best when two of them are absent.

 

[Eyeman]

They are bees ... sometimes they start two arcs of comb and sometime they start one off .. I've even seen them start a triple set of combs ... I think it's just what the 'committee' decide upon - or can't decide upon !! They do what they do, they always seem to join them up seamlessly no matter how they start out.

So the jury's out.
Why don't they start with 5 arcs?

 

[pargyle]

So the jury's out.
Why don't they start with 5 arcs?

Some probably do ... we just haven't noticed it ... If you think about it with a starter strip I've seen bees clustered across the whole strip with chains of bees hanging down from the top bar ... so perhaps they start by coating a whole section with wax and then have a race as to who can get to the bottom fastest ?