Foundationless - am I making my life too difficult?

[CountryBee]

Hi there, have completed my local bee keeping association course and am now waiting for a swarm. I'm really interested in starting off foundationless if I can but there seems to be lots of conflicting advice from don't do it if you're new to beekeeping, it's too hard, to - it's easier to start off foundationless before you adopt habits that can become difficult to change.
As I wait for my swarm, I now need to decide whether to put foundation into my frames (am using a National hive) or not and would greatly appreciate any advice.

If foundationless, then advice on whether to wire brood and or supers at all/ or use horizontal supports (I've seen wooden skewers used) or just add starter strips (20mm?) and see how my bees take to it. So much to learn......

 

[Mark Young]

You are more likely to break a foundationless comb when handling it and you have less control over the comb being built straight.

Foundation makes handling easier and guides the comb in the general direction the beekeeper wants it to be built in.

If you go foundationless, a starter strip is as good as any IMO.

I'd start with asking yourself what it is you want to achieve. Why foundationless... then make a plan to achieve it.

 

[Zante]

Agree with Mark: first decide what your destination is, and then the road to get there.

 

[Poly Hive]

What is your objection to foundation?

PH

 

[CountryBee]

thanks both for the replies. I would like to go foundationless to allow bees to just build naturally and avoid the use where possible of foundation and any possible contamination it may introduce to the hive. Honey production alone isn't therefore my primary goal and I would like to try and find a sensible balance.

 

[madasafish]

thanks both for the replies. I would like to go foundationless to allow bees to just build naturally and avoid the use where possible of foundation and any possible contamination it may introduce to the hive. Honey production alone isn't therefore my primary goal and I would like to try and find a sensible balance.

You will have fun on a hot day trying to inspect anything until the combs are at least 12 months old.

Have you ever handled foundationless?

 

[CountryBee]

Nope never handled it, just seen the videos, hence my questions to those with far more experience than I.

 

[Beefriendly]

Nope never handled it, just seen the videos, hence my questions to those with far more experience than I.

If just starting off it's good to make things easy for yourself initially. It's a steep learning curve. So I would recommend you at least start with wired brood foundation. You will be able to see how the bees draw it out pretty straight. Then you might try some starter strips or empty wired frames alternated between 2 drawn wired ones at the edge of the brood nest and see whether the bees draw them out and then see if you can handle them as easily. Brood frames are quite large and need to be strong, unwired can easily fall out of the frames/break when handling. Not something you want to happen to a full frame of bees and their larvae.

My experiences with supers and starter strips is that that if the whole box is done like this you get some weird wiggles and non-straight almost Dali-ish like drawn combs making it impossible to remove a frame without damaging the cells on it or the adjacent.

 

[domino]

I use foundationless and like it. However, if you are starting out it is probably worth using foundation as it is one less thing to worry about.

 

[Fatbee]

You need supports (either wire or I'm trying skewers this year) and a starter strip but best to have some drawn comb either side for them to align to. Other than that no issue with foundationless - . Perhaps try in year 2?

 

[drex]

I do not wish to dampen enthusiasm, but I agree with the above post. First year is a baptism of fire, and you do not need to make things harder for yourself. I suggest you start off with conventional wired frames and hives, and once you have learned some handling skills, then branch out.
I ran standard nationals for two years, and then started a home built top bar hive. Whole new ball game. Glad that I had the previous experience. As above, it is nice whe the bees build combs along the intended starters, but when they decide otherwise it can be quite a mess to sort. Wired frames are easy to handle, unwired, foundationless or frame less require much gentler more precise handling.
It would be easy enough to work out your wired frames in the second year if you decide to go foundation less, or even to try foundation less in the supers from the start, but then extracting can sometimes be more difficult unless going for cut comb, which in itself requires some experience.

 

[CountryBee]

Thanks for all of the helpful responses. Think I'll try and go for a mixture of foundation frames interleaved with frames fitted with starter strips in the brood box - and perhaps the supers also. It should provide the bees some guidelines, enables me to try my hand in a small way at foundationless and enables me to replace with foundation if I fail miserably. Feels like a sensible compromise.

Now just need to decide on wire or skewers for the foundationless frames..

 

[CountryBee]

Thanks all - really helpful advice. Need to give it some consideration, although first instinct is not to entirely ditch the idea of starting foundationless and accept I'm on an even steeper learning curve with more disappointment ahead! A compromise would be to try to interleave foundationless frames between those with foundation and see how I get on. And if I create an unholy mess I'll have a few less frames to tidy up/replace. What do you think?

Have seen lots of info on variations of fishing wire/skewers to maintain the integrity of foundationless frames, so may start with fishing wire as it appears to be slightly more popular. Unless anyone advises otherwise?

My mentor is going to love me! talk about making life difficult...

 

[CountryBee]

sorry - not quite got the hang of this and thought my first reply hadn't posted!

 

[theeggman]

sorry - not quite got the hang of this and thought my first reply hadn't posted!

To the forum.

Don't worry about duplicate posts, most of us do it sometime and keep asking the questions, there will be others out there thinking the same thing but not brave enough to ask. again.

 

[drex]

Thanks all - really helpful advice. Need to give it some consideration, although first instinct is not to entirely ditch the idea of starting foundationless and accept I'm on an even steeper learning curve with more disappointment ahead! A compromise would be to try to interleave foundationless frames between those with foundation and see how I get on. And if I create an unholy mess I'll have a few less frames to tidy up/replace. What do you think?..

The idea works well in top bar hives, putting an empty top bar between two well drawn combs, usually results in a straight drawn new comb.if caught early any bridging is usually easily corrected. Essential you learn how to turn an unsupported comb when inspecting, so that it is never horizontal. Combs in my top bar have no additional support (no skewers). When I have done cut outs and put the combs into frames using elastic bands, the bees soon attach them all round and then they are quite robust - but I still never hold them horizontally, just in case.

 

[Eyeman]

I alternate starter strips with foundation / drawn comb. I use fishing line to support the comb. Just make sure the hive is plumb vertical.

 

[Eyeman]

All my bait hives ( swarm traps) have starter strips and horizontal fishing line. Again make sure they are sited vertical. Swarms love to draw new comb so depending on the size of the swarm they can draw out all the 5 frames within a week.

 

[pargyle]

Well ... I started off foundationless and have been foundationless ever since ...

You need to wire frames horizontally in order to support the comb and you need to handle the frames a bit gently whilst the comb is still fresh but as long as you handle them in the 'proper' way .. ie: keep the comb vertical all the time and not horizontal it's fine.

I use triangular timber starter strips and paint them with melted beeswax to give them something to start with.

Never had any of the problems the no-sayers will give you .. my bees actually prefer no foundation to the occasional frame of foundation I've tried. I was given some frames with Thornes best foundation in them ... completely ignored them preferring to build out on the empty frames and starter strips.

There's a really good thread here from Tom Bick:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27494&highlight=contaminated+foundation

I am not averse to foundation ... but, I just think that bees actually enjoy building their own comb, largely to their own design .. who am I to deny them the opportunity to do what they do nornally when we don't interfere.

Plus .. there have been some scares recently about contaminated foundation ...

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38372&highlight=contaminated+foundation

I know where the wax in my colonies comes from so it doesn't bother me ...

 

[enrico]

There is any art to handling foundation less frames. It a good skill to acquire for any frames.
Never hold the frames anything other than vertical. Practise, get hold of a frame. Hold it face towards you with the top bar at the top. Drop your left hand below your right, the top bar now faces left. Swivel the frame so the top bar faces right without moving your hand position. Now return your hands to the level position. The top bar will now be at the bottom but you will be looking at the other side of the frame. Do the same again to return the frame to its original position. Practise this over and over again until it becomes natural. That way weak brood will rarely fall out of the frame.
Good luck with whatever you decide
E