Foundation less frames

[MuswellMetro]

I recently have seen three beekeepers ( two who on this forum) trying 14x12 frames with starter strips but the frame reinforced with wire

they were all experimenting with foundationless frames to see what size brood cells their bees would produce

however on the two i saw during an SBI viist all the bees had done was draw the whole 14x12 frame out as drone brood ( some varroa trap that will be)

now they had just added one foundationless frame , so some kind of swarm mode took over, but TBH hives are foundationless ,so how do you overcome the drone drawing instict when trying foundationless frames

has anyone succeded with a 14x12 foundationless system

( think they had just been reading too much of Cushmans site etc)

 

[drstitson]

i've used both dadant and langstroth frames with horizontal wiring and shallow strips that just reach a couple of cells over the wire - seem to draw that out fine as worker brood.

i suppose it depends exactly when in the life of the colony you add? mine has been when expanding nucs out to full hives.

 

[Tom Bick]

MM I have a 14x12 hive with 60% just wired frames and a standard BB all wired frames.

If you looked at the standard hive I think it would be something you would consider doing, well drawn frames with about 10-15% drone comb.

But if you looked at the 14x12 hive it has something like 40% drone comb on the wired frames and the hive full of drones, although the bees are evicting them and the hive has a pile of dead drones at the entrance but yet they continue to raise more?

I have three theories, first I started the 14x12 hive early in the year with a shook swarm and the bees had expansion on their mind and wanted to produce plenty of drones? My 2nd theory is the queen in the 14x12 hive was and has failed and the bees were edging their bets in producing so many drones in the event of disaster and no queen? I have to say she was not a drone laying queen. My 3rd theory is that given the 14x12 frame they are in someway confused by it as in the width in relation to the height?

I have cut away some of the drone comb to see if later in the year if they replace with worker comb and they have up to now replaced with drone comb.

My next experiment will be to cut away the drone comb and fit a horizontal piece of timber as a break in the comb to see what happens with a break in the comb.

I have only experimented on two hives but given what I have noticed and what you have seen it may be a problem with 14x12 hives with just wired frames. That is if you consider it a problem personally I have found the whole exercise fascinating and intend to continue.

 

[mbc]

surely its about saturation - bees like to have drone brood ( its the cheapest method for them to spread their genes ) but once they've built enough then they'll build no more

 

[viridens]

When I tried this the bees made comb which dodged the wires in some areas rather than incorporating them. This gave patches of comb which had a bee space walkway between two separate sets of cells left and right, or strong twists. This gave hiding places for queens or queen cells.

 

[Tom Bick]

Virdens did you also notice that they don’t attach the comb to the side bars and bottom bars apart from bits of brace comb.

The gaps do create space for a sneaky queen cells but it gives the bees good easy movement around the hive and I think must perhaps help in the winter movement around the hive and summer ventilation.

 

[oliver90owner]

Drone comb to bees is also storage for honey and more bang for the buck's worth of wax.

Their natural instinct is similar to a Warre (surprise, surprise) - start at the top and keep going downwardds as far as possible until the cavity is full.

Drones can be moderated if the colony is not needing them (none in Jan/Feb) and usually the appearance of drone brood heralds the swarming season as just over the horizon. They can klck out drone larvae, pupae or imagos (imaga?) if conditions are difficult.

It is the beekeeper who has reduced the amount of drone brood for the sake of profit (honey collected), so naturally I would expect more drone comb than is touted as 'normal'. Unfortunate, isn't, it that in the keepered, framed-hive colonies, that drone comb gets used again and again unless removed. Natural and expected.

BTW I would expect one would likely get worker comb, if the frame were parked in the centre of the brood nest at the maximum spring expansion period. If there is enough worker comb around, they will build drone comb. Simple as that. The gene spreading is a important natural factor, as well as continuation of the incumbent colony in the cavity.

That is my take on this.

Regards, RAB

 

[susbees]

BTW I would expect one would likely get worker comb, if the frame were parked in the centre of the brood nest at the maximum spring expansion period. If there is enough worker comb around, they will build drone comb. Simple as that. The gene spreading is a important natural factor, as well as continuation of the incumbent colony in the cavity.

Exactly our experience. The top bar bees are really quite orderly in their comb production. And given the chance on a framed hive bees will build a frame of drone comb quite enthusiastically. There are those who say you should keep one at the edge of the brood nest....drones when needed, stores when not. I agree with this (but we need super drone brood frames for the breeding group so going with that).

 

[Tom Bick]

Rab I don’t know if any study has taken place on wild colonies as to the percentage of drone comb they produce for raising drones or if they alternate from drone comb for honey storage and then back for drone rearing, but for me and my experiment continues the amount of drone comb on the 14x12 just wired frames has to be higher than normal.

 

[oliver90owner]

Tom,

Remember, with your colonies you need to consider the drone comb as a percentage of the whole hive comb area - none above the Q/E is available to the queen. Subtle difference to a natural colony.

Regards, RAB

 

[TBRNoTB]

I recently have seen three beekeepers ( two who on this forum) trying 14x12 frames with starter strips but the frame reinforced with wire

they were all experimenting with foundationless frames to see what size brood cells their bees would produce

however on the two i saw during an SBI viist all the bees had done was draw the whole 14x12 frame out as drone brood ( some varroa trap that will be)

now they had just added one foundationless frame , so some kind of swarm mode took over, but TBH hives are foundationless ,so how do you overcome the drone drawing instict when trying foundationless frames

has anyone succeded with a 14x12 foundationless system

( think they had just been reading too much of Cushmans site etc)

My Tanzanian 14x12 TBH has plain foundation-less (home made) frames, they don't seem to have any problem making worker and drone comb. I think I may try the wired version though. I have frames they have totally filled which are very heavy and may benefit from wires!

 

[viridens]

Tom,

Yes, I did notice a lack of attachment to side bars etc, but I have often seen the same type of thing with conventional foundation where holes are chewed through at frame edges for access too, but some of my boxes are old and sagging, so spaces may be off...

As for the proportion of drone cells to worker cells, surely it depends on what the hive decides is appropriate at the particular time of the season/state of the colony when the comb is drawn?

 

[Nellie]

Getting on quite happily with foundationless 14x12 frames at the moment.

I use horizontal wiring:

Not taken pictures over the last couple of weeks but when they first started I ended up with comb being drawn:

The first frame tends to be all Drone comb, after that things get a little more sketchy in terms of being able to give a set % of what's drone and what's worker cell but I'm still alternating foundationless with foundation so I'd still expect things to settle down a little bit more.

I'm sure the TBH guys can give a far more accurate idea of what proportion of Drone comb you end up with but I'm very happy with the experiment so far and am currently in no rush to go back to foundation but the results of the chemicals in wax study I'm taking part in will probably bee what ends up swaying my decision one way or another.

I'll try and get some updated photos over the weekend as some of the frames are quite interesting in terms of the cell size and distribution.

 

[MuswellMetro]

thanks, all, very interesting, i will await Nellie update photos

 

[fincaazul]

Getting on quite happily with foundationless 14x12 frames at the moment.

I use horizontal wiring:

Not taken pictures over the last couple of weeks but when they first started I ended up with comb being drawn:

The first frame tends to be all Drone comb, after that things get a little more sketchy in terms of being able to give a set % of what's drone and what's worker cell but I'm still alternating foundationless with foundation so I'd still expect things to settle down a little bit more.

I'm sure the TBH guys can give a far more accurate idea of what proportion of Drone comb you end up with but I'm very happy with the experiment so far and am currently in no rush to go back to foundation but the results of the chemicals in wax study I'm taking part in will probably bee what ends up swaying my decision one way or another.

I'll try and get some updated photos over the weekend as some of the frames are quite interesting in terms of the cell size and distribution.

35 years ago often used starter strip of foundation for brood frame, no wiring as they didn't need to go into extractor. Always got good comb produced. bees today are even less predictable ( different strains, pesticide effects, imported queens etc ) Why does it get harder ( beekeeping of course ) think some research is indicated, because bees don't read the books, we do and it still doesn't seem to help!

 

[Nellie]

For once, this is one thing they seem to doing "by the book" so to speak.

I stopped using foundation in the supers last year with good results so it seemed reasonable to give it a try and extend that to the brood boxes especially in light of growing studies showing what's in wax. I got to a reasonable amount of trouble to keep un-necessary crap from going into my hives so why put it in through foundation wax?

Only detail I missed though in the photo above they've ignored it completely is that I used a spare OA syringe to put a line of wax along the top bar just to give them a guide but in that frame they've started the comb along the lower edge of the top bar rather than using the wax guide so norty bees on that front.

 

[Nellie]

Well, I remembered to take a few updated photos, covering the phone in propolis while I was at it! I can't figure out how I get the URL from flickr when using the phone so I'll update them when I get home.

I've got a frame from one of the colonies that is using 50-50 foundation and a frame from a colony where it is the only non foundation frame, I think it'll be pretty obvious which is which.

 

[the naked beekeeper]

Looking forward to it.
Thanks for sharing your experiments and thoughts Nellie.

How did you secure the wire from side bar to side bar and keep it tensioned; and what wire did you use? Just ordinary garden wire?

 

[Nellie]

The photos above (I think they're here) should show the basics, but for horizontal wiring:

Assemble your frame as per normal, do not pin the bottom bars at both ends.

drill a 3mm hole approx 1/3 and 2/3 down each side bar.

Stick eyelets in the holes to stop the wires pulling through.

Partially push a drawing pin above or below the holes on one sidebar.

Doesn't matter whether you work up or down but run the wire horizontally through the eyelets, up the side of the sidebar and horizontally through the other.

Wrap the loose end a couple Of times round the drawing pin and push it in, trim the loose wire if you wish.

With a couple of centimetres of the bottom bars over lapping the side bars, pull the wire reasonably tight wrap it a couple of times round the other drawing pin and push it in. You don't have to get it mad tight at this point but you don't want loads of slack.

Pull the unfastened side bar out and pin the bottom bars. This is the step that tensions your wire hence not pulling it mad tight above because you'll just snap it.

I bought the frame wire and eyelets from one of censored suppliers. Probably the one near glos rather than wragby.

 

[the naked beekeeper]

Awesome.
Thanks for the detail and information.

You have inspired me to give it a go.
Of course it depends on the colonies needs, what sort of comb they'll build, but if you're not too worried about eeking every last pound of honey and just want to encourage bees to live more naturally, then I think it's a great starting point.

Thanks Nellie.