Fondant in the Spring/Autumn

[Do224]

Am I right in thinking that feeding fondant is sometimes preferable to syrup if you just want to make sure the bees don’t starve…but also want to make sure you don’t clog up the brood nest?

 

[StephenT]

It can be an alternative to thick syrup at the end of summer / autumn. The bees take it down and store it fine and some people say they store it less quick allowing space for brood. I've been beekeeping for almost 3 years now and have mainly used fondant for autumn as you can stick about 10kg on a queen excluder and leave them to it. Check out the Apiarist blog as he's got a few posts on use of fondant. I’ve not had to use it in winter/spring yet.

 

[Wilco]

Excess of food in whatever form can clog the brood nest.

Think from the bees' perspective, as I understand it:

Nectar is a sugar solution which they concentrate down to honey by dehydration. Honey is useful for stores as it's water content is low enough to inhibit mould formation.

The dehydration of nectar/sugar solution uses energy. The more dilute it is to start with, the more energy it will take to concentrate.

Fondant does not need concentrating down.

In winter you want them to conserve energy so it's more common to feed more concentrated sources of sugar such as fondant if store levels are low (and if you're worried they might be low, just feed them, better too much than starvation!). Some (I believe @Finman) will dunk a frame in strong syrup so the cells fill up with it and put this inside the hive for the bees as an alternative to fondant. I have not tried this myself.

Nectar flows also stimulate the queen to lay to increase the colony size to exploit the nectar.

You don't want this in winter as you will end up with more bees and brood which will then consume more stores. Which means you have to pay for something to feed them.

You do want this in early spring (or prior to an anticipated nectar flow) so you can increase colony size ready for the nectar flow. So dilute syrup tends to be fed in spring. At this time you may be doing weekly inspections so can adjust your feeding rates or switch out frames if you think you're losing brood space.

Concentrated syrup does not have the same effect on stimulating laying as dilute syrup and takes less energy to dehydrate. This is why it is often fed in Autumn to boost stores pre-winter. Fondant can be used as an alternative.

Some use fondant in mating nucs too but that's probably outside the immediate sphere of the question.

Bees will also be disinclined to take down syrup in winter.

 

[Finman]

Wilco , your understanding as a bee is quite poor.

In Finland we cannot use fondant as bee food on winter. Your hives get every day drinking water, but in Finland bees cannot come out to get water between November - Marsh. So, bees need to dilute fondant

Loosing energy during storing sugar syrup is not a problem. Bees use 24% out of original sugar in storing process. When I feed 20 kg sugar for 9 months, the price of 5 kg sugar is about £ 3-4. It is same as 1 kg honey.

Bees really do not need sugar syrup in spring to activate brood rearing. They have inside desire to rear brood. But bees have too an instinct to save food, when they meet a bad weather week. They stop laying and larva feeding 50 %, but when sun shines, and bees get pollen from nature, that accelerates brood rearing to maximum.

In spring I even food resources between hives, and I do not need to feed hives in spring with sugar.

My nature starts to give willow pollen at the beginning of May. Some year willow in the middle of April, but mostly weathers are so low, that bees cannot fly to willows.

 

[Finman]

Concentrated syrup does not have the same effect on stimulating laying as dilute syrup and takes less energy to dehydrate. This is why it is often fed in Autumn to boost stores pre-winter. Fondant can be used as an alternative.

Some use fondant in mating nucs too but that's probably outside the immediate sphere of the question.

To boost brooding in autumn is not a good idea. It is not really needed.

Tje fact is that when a worker feeds larvi, it will die before winter. The colony size will not grow.

Your bees will not become a good winter bees, if they do not get enough pollen

 

[Wilco]

Not sure anything we're saying really contradicts each other? You're in a different country with very different conditions, hence feeding differently over winter.

Good to point out the need for pollen too, I should have mentioned that.

 

[Do224]

I understand people sometimes feed fondant to nucs in late summer instead of syrup (if they’re short of stores)…the reason being that they want to make sure the colony doesn’t starve, but also ensure sufficient space remains for the queen to lay the winter bees. Their argument being that if they fed syrup instead, the brood nest would quickly be back filled at precisely the time it should be available for the queen to lay.

 

[Boston Bees]

I understand people sometimes feed fondant to nucs in late summer instead of syrup (if they’re short of stores)…the reason being that they want to make sure the colony doesn’t starve, but also ensure sufficient space remains for the queen to lay the winter bees. Their argument being that if they fed syrup instead, the brood nest would quickly be back filled at precisely the time it should be available for the queen to lay.

Yes, feeding can be a bit of a minefield. Certainly if you had a 6-frame nuc, and you chucked 12 litres of syrup into it rapidly, you might run into issues with space. But you can feed smaller amounts, regularly, and you should be fine. Or you can use fondant, which as you say is less prone to packing the brood nest out. But whatever you do, you need to make sure the bees have time to get the feed into the frames before winter. A slab of fondant on top of empty frames, in winter, won't stop the bees starving, especially if it is above a crownboard or up in a nuc feeder.

 

[Ian123]

I understand people sometimes feed fondant to nucs in late summer instead of syrup (if they’re short of stores)…the reason being that they want to make sure the colony doesn’t starve, but also ensure sufficient space remains for the queen to lay the winter bees. Their argument being that if they fed syrup instead, the brood nest would quickly be back filled at precisely the time it should be available for the queen to lay.

It’s actually hard to over feed a colony and if your inspecting I’d say impossible, because you simply stop or rotate frames in. Also when you see how packed a box can actually get you’ll realise how much they can actually pack in.

 

[Wilco]

I understand people sometimes feed fondant to nucs in late summer instead of syrup (if they’re short of stores)…the reason being that they want to make sure the colony doesn’t starve, but also ensure sufficient space remains for the queen to lay the winter bees. Their argument being that if they fed syrup instead, the brood nest would quickly be back filled at precisely the time it should be available for the queen to lay.

The timing of feeding will vary depending on seasons near you. I'm down south and would usually only feed late summer if there's a dearth of forage and thought colonies were light. I'd usually do feeding for winter stores in 'Autumn' rather than 'Summer' months but the concept of seasons is more useful IMO.

If you're worried about clogging the brood nest just feed less at a time but check feeder levels frequently. Fondant can still be used to fill cells if you give lots of it.

Agree with the above comments about overfeeding being harder than it sounds.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I understand people sometimes feed fondant to nucs in late summer instead of syrup (if they’re short of stores)…the reason being that they want to make sure the colony doesn’t starve, but also ensure sufficient space remains for the queen to lay the winter bees. Their argument being that if they fed syrup instead, the brood nest would quickly be back filled at precisely the time it should be available for the queen to lay.

It may be an 'argument' they put up but they are sadly unaware of what their bees do. Bees will take down and store fondant in the autumn just as easily as they do syrup so will just as quickly take up brooding space.
Fondant is used in winter as (as already been said) bees are reluctant to go up into the feeders to take cold syrup, it's handy as an emergency feed late autumn as an emergency feed in spring for the same reason. Give it to them in spring when they don't need it and it will still be taken down therefore again compromising brooding space.

 

[oliver90owner]

In spring I even food resources between hives, and I do not need to feed hives in spring with sugar.

My nature starts to give willow pollen at the beginning of May. Some year willow in the middle of April, but mostly weathers are so low, that bees cannot fly to willows.

Finnyland is not quite the same as UK. I used to feed dilute syrup early/mid February to some colonies try to to get them ready for the OSR, which may start flowering in late March (dependent on the weather, of course).

If the OSR was early flowering, later developing nests would not have expanded sufficiently to take full advantage of the OSR. On the other hand, if the winter season drags on, one may finish up needing to feed those strong colonies ahead of the OSR. Thinking caps needed, as time from eggs to foragers is about 6 weeks.

In addition to encouraging brood (or as an alternative) transferring either capped brood frames 3-4 weeks before the anticipated OSR flow, or even adding bees could help the OSR crop.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Finnyland is not quite the same as UK

feels like it's not even on the same planet sometimes

 

[Finman]

feels like it's not even on the same planet sometimes

Yeah. Your space station is so special.
In our country countries are said country, not planets.
It is even 2000 km distance between us. Is it amazing.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[Finman]

Finnyland is not quite the same as UK. I used to feed dilute syrup early/mid February to some colonies try to to get them ready for the OSR, which may start flowering in late March (dependent on the weather, of course).

The knowledge about NOT feeding syrup for brooding is not from Finland. It is mainly from USA universities and laboratories. Brood need protein.

In those researches it has been clearly said that bees cannot rear brood with syrup.

In Germany they have researched, that Autumn brood boosting has no use. Colonies do not become bigger, for winter, because feeder bees die before winter.

I have fed pollen and pollen patty to my bees 30 years, that bees start brood rearing 3 weeks earlie than willow blooming.

My aim has been to get early splended yield from dandelion. I must admid that it has not been succesfull, because our weathers are so chilly during dandelion bloom, that bees have not got much honey to their hives. But at the end of June hives have been really stong.

In Britain the bee knowledge from dad to son continues. British beekeeping knowledge is so special. It works only on your Isles.

 

[Finman]

You guys out there say often, that your nature has allways pollen for bees.

Very often you say, that your have a brood break in your because of weather. Queens use to rest sometimes and stops laying.

I have never met a laying queen during 60 years beekeeping, that it takes a laying break during active season. But only once. It was May and bees could not come out during 3 weeks rain. Not even pollen patty helped.

I think that the reasons to your laying breaks is swarming.

But it helps in foraging, that your black bee can forage in freezing brizzle. In Finland bees make yields when temps are over +20C.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

freezing brizzle

had some of that once - tasted lovely with chocolate sprinkles, a wafer and some fresh cream

 

[Wilco]

I have fed pollen and pollen patty to my bees 30 years, that bees start brood rearing 3 weeks earlie than willow blooming.

Pollen patty is not good enough food to larvae.
When pollen is out in the hive, bees eate first their larvae. That is their natural system.

I agree pollen is also needed for brooding. However, you appear to contradict yourself. Would you be willing to clarify/give a bit more detail?

 

[Finman]

I agree pollen is also needed for brooding. However, you appear to contradict yourself. Would you be willing to clarify/give a bit more detail?

When you cut sentence from here and there, I do not know what I contradict.

After 30 years I have still to learn.

I wondered 2 years agi, why the hives do not eate pollen patty. Last spring the same thing.

Finally it cleared out, that bad weathers influence so strong to bees' insticts, that they put save mode on and do not feed larvae and the queen. When sun started to shine anf they went to gly outside, they started patty consuming.

There are some bee strains like Elgon bee, which do not mind about weather. They rear their brood as much as they can. Same was Norton's Buckfast bees from Cyprus.

Yes. Complex thing that brood acceleration.

When I reared several nucs with patty in late Summer, all 6 nucs got nosema in winter and none survived. Same happened to 5 good nucs, when they got nectar from balsam, but they did not get good pollen from othet plants.