Filled Cavity Hive Design

[jet]

As a bit of a newby to these parts I was in two minds as to whether to post this yet, but I don't really see why not.

Following the discussion about insulation on the main board the other week got me thinking. I am new to bees, but as an engineer was planning to make my own ply hives to start off this year. Adding this to the fact I had my cavity walls filled last week I came up with the attached cross-section as the beginnings of a possible design for a hive made from two walls of ply sandwiching some polystyrene and capped with a timber frame.

Now I would like to apologise for my lacking CAD skills, and am also prepared for this to go down in flames! So all opinions welcome!

 

[hedgerow pete]

any thing is possible but the question of why is the main one

 

[drstitson]

presumably because some ply and knauf board will cost less than a bought poly hive.

 

[Poly Hive]

For the Materials, Time and fussing I really think it would pay you to buy a proper poly.

I have made a sandwich construction for nucs and it really was a pain not to mention the insulation value was less.

However it rather depends on how important compatibility down the road is going to be, (warning major issue) and how important satisfaction is.

PH

 

[Hombre]

Hello Jet,

I haven't checked the figures. I personally use and make my own 14x12 boxes. I do appreciate that to understand what you are doing, there is nothing like designing and making your own boxes, albeit to standard designs. It's the implementation that is important.

Your design unfortunately mayl prove difficult to scale the quantity from one or two to ten or more, as it is likely to prove labour intensive. and may prove to be less robust than a standard design.

Are you planning to construct one of these as a proof of concept for this year?

If it works out then perhaps the full plans for the box would be worth posting. As it is, you have given us a taster. Good luck.

 

[Finman]

I bet that construction will be 2-3 times more expencive than poly hive.

You have 9 mm ply + 50 mm insulation + 9 mm ply.

5 + 20 + 5 should be enough even to Finland. Then the wall will be 30 mm thick.


If you calculate a big board which has 5 mm ply and perhaps 20 mm stryrofoam board between plyes. Glue should be polyurethane glue which hardens with water and attach onto plastic foam.

These have been done in Finland tens of years and the price is 34 € per box. Polybox is 16 €.


I hope that your engineering skills however produce better quality than Russians have
(my idol hive)

.

 

[hedgerow pete]

my idol bee keeper

 

[MuswellMetro]

As a bit of a newby to these parts I was in two minds as to whether to post this yet, but I don't really see why not.

So all opinions welcome!

first welcome, second always post, it why the forum exists

i would ask why langstroth hives, you may find it difficult to get bees on langstroth frames in the uk as less use them, i would suggest applying it to a national hive ( if you must)

for my two pennyworth the old unmodified nationals brood box with 43mm thick frame bearing end walls are still compatable with Modified BS nationals 460x460mm boxes

if you used 12mm and 6 mm ply faces would allow 25 mm of insulation, but applying that to the none frame sides though would drop your inner width dimension from 424mm to 374mm or about 10 hoffman frames instead of 11 or 12

what would i do, i think it would biuld standard ply nationals out of 18mm ply as the plans are on this forum and strap 40mm kingspan foil back insulation on the outside with duck tape, it would be a lot quicker and easier


what do i actual do, well buy the best brood box i can, as the live there 24/7 and insulate only the top with 100mm kingspan and built a lot of my super boxes out of thinner 12mm ply ( same method as Rose OSB boxes) rather than heavy 18mm( cheaper,lighter and supers don't have to be robust as broods)

 

[Finman]

if you used 12mm and 6 mm ply faces would allow 25 mm of insulation, but applying that to the none frame sides though would drop your inner width dimension from 424mm to 374mm or about 10 hoffman frames instead of 11 or 12
)

When you make you own box, it would be usefull that the box out dimensions are modern standard. So you have no problem to use other boxes.

12 mm +6 mm ply is not bad. Even 10 mm insulation is good to stop heat conduction outside. 12 mm gives a strickt skeleton to the hive. But still, the box will be heavy. Ply sucks up to 30% water and it adds the weight.

 

[jet]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

To answers a few of the points/questions...

Yes my motivation was probably a cost-benefit to get a more insulated design that was possible to DIY. I have not fully costed the materials and compared against a bought poly. It would probably depend on the quality of insulation board that was used.

Regarding the fiddly construction I have a friend who is carpenter and offered to slice up the ply boards on his industrial bandsaw. After that the cutting of the poly and framing shouldn't be too tricky. I don't think the corner joins need to be lapped because of the ply sides holding it all together.

I had chosen the Langstroth to because I liked the larger size and simple design. I also like the idea of the molded plastic frames and I didn't spot those in National sizes. But as pointed out this could be a problem with local compatibility.

If I do try this I'll be sure to post some pictures, etc.!

 

[MuswellMetro]

Thanks for the feedback guys.



I had chosen the Langstroth to because I liked the larger size and simple design. I also like the idea of the molded plastic frames and I didn't spot those in National sizes. But as pointed out this could be a problem with local compatibility.

If I do try this I'll be sure to post some pictures, etc.!

if you are making langstroth then you need to rebate the ply for the frame ledge and that really means a router

Perhaps you can get away with 25mm WBP ply (a bit thick) but it is also almost twice as expensive at 18mm ply at about £60 a 10x5 instead of £35

look at the plans on this site for 14x12 national,same size approx as a Lanstroth and they can be made just with a table saw and straight cuts, you can make the top and bottom bars up to the L shape with 12mm and 18mm WBP ply or 18mm/19mm
Marine ply (yes they are heavy but not a problem in normal use)

for supers to reduce weight use 12mm ply though out and the L bars out of 12mm and 25mm pine, the extra 12mm internal width sideways does not cause that much additional brace comb but then you only remove the super frames to extract not inspect

 

[jet]

if you are making langstroth then you need to rebate the ply for the frame ledge and that really means a router

This was the reason I chose the langstroth design in the first instance. It is possible to use a short inner wall out of 9mm to provide the frame ledge. This way the construction just relies on 8 sides of ply, 8 battons and the poly filler. No routing, just simple cuts.

Another option could be to use thinner ply still and see if the overall weight can be maintained to a conventional design using 18mm or thicker ply.

When I had browsed the National designs they looked more complex with small bits of wood in various places. It seemed easier to adapt the Langstroth design, but that probably means I just don't have the experience building any type of hive to really comment! I will look at 14x12 plans as being national compliant would be an advantage.

 

[rae]

Some thoughts.

Building your own hives is on a knife edge of economic viability. As an individual you'll pay though the nose for materials, the manufacturers are buying in bulk and getting a far better deal. It really isn't worth making your own hives in Cedar for example. Scrap materials and shuttering ply - of course.

Compatability is a must. It is fun making some complex and exotic brood box. As you make the 10th super in the same way, you're going to get very bored indeed.

If you're setting up table saws, do lots of cuts in one go. Set up is 90% of the job.

 

[wojciech]

Polish Double Walled hives



When I surf around Polish beekeeping sites I've found that if using wooden rather than poly hives (which they claim to have invented ) they usually use double walled hives consisting of pine boards 1 cm thick nailed inside and outside square frames which form the top and bottom edges and filled inside with either polystyrene or fibreglass (traditionally hay or straw). Of course the more extreme continental climate dictated the need for hives which would be cool in summer and warm in winter. I suspect that the lower cost of softwood in Poland makes the cost of building such a hive more accessible but I've toyed with the idea of trying to build a Lagstroth to such a design using reclaimed pallet boards planed down to 1 cm thick. Apart from the cost being lowered, the sustainability of using reclaimed boards appeals to me on "green grounds".

See link to an illustrated article : http://pszczelarstwo.neostrada.pl/budowa_ula.htm

I've posted this link before last year and offered to help anyone interested with translation but several people came up with a Google tool to translate it. I suspect that electronic translation is'nt brilliant from the electronic translations that I've seen of Perones articles.

 

[Sussex Bees]

I've just made a very similar brood box as suggested by Muswell Metro.
Based on national dimensions, 12mm ply, 25mm and 6mm ply on the frame wall end, 18mm ply on other 2 walls, with 2 x 25mm insulated dummy frames leaving room for 10 self spacing frames. And there was me thinking I'd come up with something new! lol!

I'll put a photo on here next week if anyone is interested.

 

[DanBee]

Based on national dimensions, 12mm ply, 25mm and 6mm ply on the frame wall end, 18mm ply on other 2 walls, with 2 x 25mm insulated dummy frames leaving room for 10 self spacing frames.

So they're not going to blow away in a breeze then?!

 

[Sussex Bees]

Just re read my post, it should read 12mm ply, 25mm cellotex, 6mm ply.

 

[madasafish]

... I suspect that the lower cost of softwood in Poland makes the cost of building such a hive more accessible but I've toyed with the idea of trying to build a Lagstroth to such a design using reclaimed pallet boards planed down to 1 cm thick. Apart from the cost being lowered, the sustainability of using reclaimed boards appeals to me on "green grounds".
....

I have made Warre hives from reclaimed pallets - basically a box like a normal hive. Although they work, the quality of my reclaimed wood was so poor, splitting in use is a real problem. I can't recommend it - based on my experience.

Top bar hives using reclaimed wood are OK as I insert vertical strengtheners into the long sides.