Fermented honey

[Frizzaldo]

the honey could have lower than 20% content but not meet the other criteria in Paragraph 8 and be classified as bakers honey. Water content is the most likely though but i can imagine some heated <20% moisture honey gets sold as bakers too

 

[ericbeaumont]

In what form do you sell the propolis?

As it comes from the hive, in shards.

It seems to be supplied online in balls of various sizes which means it must have been formed by human fingers; the consumer must smash it when cold or warm it and cut a piece off. Customers like the absence of process, so I leave out that faff and supply in small pieces.

I remove propolis with a clean stainless steel hive tool over a big clean sheet of paper, from frames or hive parts without poly, paint, dead bee or detritus; quite a lot is rejected.

Manley side bars are a good source because crushed bees are unlikely to be found there, as the frames are undisturbed through the season. Avoid getting it sticky by collecting before uncapping supers; it's another needless process to have to wash it.

Fine plastic garden mesh for almost zero outlay can be used or a robust plastic screen for £22, but I haven't yet achieved good yields using either (I didn't pay £22!).

After collection the pile is gone through at least twice, piece by piece on a white plate under a bright light; anything risky is rejected. Big lumps are best frozen, smashed gently in a pestle and mortar and doube-checked; this selection process must not be under-estimated.

Glass jars with aluminium lids aren't cheap but display propolis well; the side of the jar and the lid are both labelled. I sell two sizes, 10g/£4, 25g/£10.

 

[enrico]

It seems to me there are two questions.
1) Is what is in the jar honey as per the regs?
2) if it is not honey then is it bakers honey as per the regs?
Can it be both?

 

[Finman]

It seems to me there are two questions.
1) Is what is in the jar honey as per the regs?
2) if it is not honey then is it bakers honey as per the regs?
Can it be both?

To me it is rotten honey. Not for human consumption.

 

[JamezF]

It seems to me there are two questions.
1) Is what is in the jar honey as per the regs?
2) if it is not honey then is it bakers honey as per the regs?
Can it be both?

I would argue that yes, it can be both. "honey" is a subset of "baker's honey". If you wished to sell all your honey as baker's honey then you could. There are circumstances where your "sugar-based beehive product" could be sold as baker's honey when it can't be sold as honey (for example if it has been heated too much), but there isn't anything you can do to that product that allows it to be sold only as honey and not baker's honey (ignoring any specific issues with heather honey as I've never got involved with that).

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

To me it is rotten honey. Not for human consumption.

My customers would disagree.

Time for a little clarification: there is fermentation that gambols like a spring kitten in a field of buttercups, and then there's fermentation that slithers by night and growls as it belches as it sleeps.

Which do you mean?

The little piggy that I take to market has just begun a timid, tentative ferment, tastes like honey+ and brings a rainbow of fluffy pleasure to all who taste it.

Rank stew, the sort that gives Finman night sweats, smells like the tap room the morning after a lock-in at a down-at-heel Newport boozer. That is never allowed out but reserved for honey vinegar (if I get round to it) and if that fails, the drain beckons.

Last year we took a colony out of a top bar hive in West Essex - son's abandoned bees, Dad & Mum moving, you know the story - and 30 lbs of the most fermented foulness came from the crushed combs.

Here lay the perfect union of disgusting and revolting, a pinnacle of yuk that could never be allowed to roam loose. To this day it remains in my kitchen, seething and pacing inside it's padlocked cage, waiting for a vinegar mother to cast her spell.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well my soft set that started to bubble tasted lovely. So you may have something. Honey with an alcohol bite

 

[JamezF]

Well my soft set that started to bubble tasted lovely.

The French have a word for it (at least, in the case of wine): pétillance -- when you get that slightly prickly sensation on the tongue.

Perhaps if it really goes crazy the honey could be sold as "Méthode Champenoise"

James

 

[Finman]

My customers would disagree.

Rank stew, the sort that gives Finman night sweats, smells like the tap room the morning after a lock-in at a

Blaa blaa blaa. I have tasted enough fermented honey during 60 years.

If I cannot eate something stuff myself, I cannot sell it to other people.

I know, that if you have out there honey washing waters or melted comb honey, you make mead of what ever, which mix your head. You head anf low head.

You have your taste things. To me fermented honey is rotten honey.

 

[fizzle]

If there's a good flow they will draw comb on heather but use drawn to start with I selected the same years drawn comb white comb comb that hasn't had brood in, but if you only have older then use that.

Will do dude,

 

[bobba]

I read that sometimes honey can still sometimes ferment on rare if <20%. Apparently it also depends on the type of honey the storage conditions and what types of yeast are present in the honey. So the whole 20% thing is not a 100% guarantee your honey.

Regarding your frames Fizzle, personally I would break the cappings on all the frames, then put the supers below the brood box. hopefully the bees will move the honey up, then once empty, remove them. If it works it will ensure all the honey has been re-processed by the bees.

Just a warning but my bees seem to become a bit more aggressive for a week or so when they get fermented supers. Others say they have observed this behavior too. But many also say there is no change to their bees temperament.

 

[bobba]

As it comes from the hive, in shards.

It seems to be supplied online in balls of various sizes which means it must have been formed by human fingers; the consumer must smash it when cold or warm it and cut a piece off. Customers like the absence of process, so I leave out that faff and supply in small pieces.

I remove propolis with a clean stainless steel hive tool over a big clean sheet of paper, from frames or hive parts without poly, paint, dead bee or detritus; quite a lot is rejected.

Manley side bars are a good source because crushed bees are unlikely to be found there, as the frames are undisturbed through the season. Avoid getting it sticky by collecting before uncapping supers; it's another needless process to have to wash it.

Fine plastic garden mesh for almost zero outlay can be used or a robust plastic screen for £22, but I haven't yet achieved good yields using either (I didn't pay £22!).

After collection the pile is gone through at least twice, piece by piece on a white plate under a bright light; anything risky is rejected. Big lumps are best frozen, smashed gently in a pestle and mortar and doube-checked; this selection process must not be under-estimated.

Glass jars with aluminium lids aren't cheap but display propolis well; the side of the jar and the lid are both labelled. I sell two sizes, 10g/£4, 25g/£10.

I had 3 customers ask for propolis as they had heard of its health benefits. So I would just scrape off any big lumps that looked nice and pop them in a little tub.

I found 2nd year mainly frames are the best source.

I just gave my propolis away, but never had much and the few people that asked for it were delighted when I had a little for them.

But there is definitely a growing awareness of what propolis is, so suspect it will be a growing market moving forward.

I think for anyone with alot of hives propolis is definitely worth perusing.

 

[enrico]

Interestingly, I have several jars that are fermenting. You can hear the pressure release as the lid comes off. No bubbles but a fermenting smell and a strong metallic taste. Just measured the water content of one of these jars and it comes in at 18.5. I seem to get this every year with some jars! I use them for cooking and they are fine but.....18.5?

 

[Erichalfbee]

My batch of soft set was around that. I guess it depends on the types of yeasts there are in the honey.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/jarring-and-air-bubbles.47212/#post-715080
Beeno hasn’t been around for a while or she’d have an answer

 

[Antipodes]

Interestingly, I have several jars that are fermenting. You can hear the pressure release as the lid comes off. No bubbles but a fermenting smell and a strong metallic taste. Just measured the water content of one of these jars and it comes in at 18.5. I seem to get this every year with some jars! I use them for cooking and they are fine but.....18.5?

17.1 percent water (or perhaps it's 17) and below will not ferment I believe. I think it was JW White's research that established that, but I can't find it at the moment. At that percentage it doesn't matter what yeasts are in it apparently.

 

[mdotb]

17.1 percent water (or perhaps it's 17) and below will not ferment I believe. I think it was JW White's research that established that, but I can't find it at the moment. At that percentage it doesn't matter what yeasts are in it apparently.

White stated that below 17.1 it did not ferment within one year irrespective of the yeast levels they identified, and between 17.1 and 18 it did not ferment within one year if there were fewer than 1,000 yeast spores per gram. However I would add that those were still just experimental results; there is no particular hypothesis for there being a step change at that level, and they were dealing with the sugar tolerant yeasts that they found naturally in the honey - those could of course be different in different parts of the world.

Honey Composition and Properties, J W White Jr and Landis W Doner, published in Beekeeping in the United States, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Science and Education Administration, 1980

 

[Antipodes]

White stated that below 17.1 it did not ferment within one year irrespective of the yeast levels they identified, and between 17.1 and 18 it did not ferment within one year if there were fewer than 1,000 yeast spores per gram. However I would add that those were still just experimental results; there is no particular hypothesis for there being a step change at that level, and they were dealing with the sugar tolerant yeasts that they found naturally in the honey - those could of course be different in different parts of the world.

Honey Composition and Properties, J W White Jr and Landis W Doner, published in Beekeeping in the United States, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Science and Education Administration, 1980

Thanks mdotb. Excellent. Do you know if there has been any further experimentation since then (not necessarily by them), on fermentation over a longer time period ?