Feral bees and bait hives

[blackcloud]

No mention of treatment or varroa whatsoever from me ,you missed that bit.
My problem with your master plan is that you magnify the aggression and brood disorder that our local feral bees are lumped with.
Too many bees.Too many poor quality bees.
It's an established fact that the UK is one of the most nature depleted areas in the world
Insects form one of the foundation layers of the eco system
We have had ,its said ,an 80%reduction in the insect population over the last 30 years,but a massive spike in honeybees(due to humans)
9 of 13 species of UK bumble bees remain (and they're the cute ones that get the PR-the ugly bugs are all gone and forgotten)
It's like a zoo releasing diseased animals so they 'get better'
"I'm sure you can work that out for yourself"

 

[Beesnaturally]

You may have forgotten that pre-varroa beekeepers WERE treatment free. I certainly never treated.

I can't quite believe you just said that.

 

[Anduril]

I can't quite believe you just said that.

I was too young for the Isle of Wight disease and never used Fumidil B

 

[Beesnaturally]

No mention of treatment or varroa whatsoever from me ,you missed that bit.

I imagine you are responding to my post here? Feral bees and bait hives

My problem with your master plan is that you magnify the aggression and brood disorder that our local feral bees are lumped with.

I'm sorry that doesn't scan for me. By 'lumped with' do you mean 'saddled with' or 'lumbered with' or something like that?

If so: That's not my experience. Nor is is consistent with evolutionary understanding. Aggressiveness has a cost; over-aggressiveness in any particular environments makes a colony uncompetitive. It 'breeds' out through natural selection. It's likely true that you are more likely to get stroppier bees from collecting swarms than buying purposely bred gentle stock. But I've never found it to be a problem. You just get better at handling your stock, and you keep the spikier ones away from the public. The advantage over buying in gentler queens is that you are not interfering with the natural development of resistance in your local population.
Its very likely that where feral bees are struggling with the mess of multiple strains and broad lack of resistance - ie anywhere near where treating beekeepers are common - you will get a wide range of mongrel behaviours. But outside, or once they have sufficient numbers, or are have developed discretionary mating habits that keep them separate, a thriving local population settles down to a good measure of calm uniformity, as that state is most productive - ie competitive.

Too many bees.Too many poor quality bees.

Says you/whatever. The fact is bees live wild in most places in the UK now, and as they are free, if you are on a budget, or you can understand the ecological case and you want to work within it, you might want to bait bait hives out. This thread is for people who are interested in doing those things.

It's an established fact that the UK is one of the most nature depleted areas in the world

Nonsense. Is it more depleted than any desert in the world? Many places in the uk are doing pretty well.

Insects form one of the foundation layers of the eco system

We agree

We have had ,its said ,an 80%reduction in the insect population over the last 30 years,but a massive spike in honeybees(due to humans)

I don't think so. There were far more hives during and after the WW2, and before that rural communities had many beekeepers.

9 of 13 species of UK bumble bees remain (and they're the cute ones that get the PR-the ugly bugs are all gone and forgotten)
It's like a zoo releasing diseased animals so they 'get better'
"I'm sure you can work that out for yourself"

Any such 'diseased animals' are escapees from your hives. You might want to think about that. They have been rendered not fit for purpose in the natural environment.
If you had even a basic comprehension of natural selection, you would understand how the machinery is, more than anything else, a health-seeking device.
The sickest die, the strongest make the next generation and imbue it with the qualities that made them strong.

After many years of working with feral-sourced bees your picture of them being weak, aggressive and disease-ridden make no sense at to me. I think you should try experimenting with them. You might just get a nice surprise.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I was too young for the Isle of Wight disease and never used Fumidil B

Nope. I don't think there is any recovery from presuming treatment free to be the same thing in the pre and post varroa introduction worlds.

 

[Lislarybees]

The feral population in our locale is pitiful, and sadly, plentiful.

Masses of poor quality colonies that do no one any favours and monopolizing the forage to the detriment of other pollinators.
Beekeepers are partly to blame.

Perpetuation of the DNA is only snowballing it further.

It needs a complete reset.
Hopefully the arrival of AH will thin it out....

Presumably the reset you talk of means the re-introduction of pure Amm and the re-establishment of the natural ecological order?

 

[Lislarybees]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/367532716_Investigations_into_wild_honeybees_in_IrelandAll my bee keeping is based on caught swarms. I place my traps in areas where I know there are wild colonies living and catch more than I know what to do with. From time to time I pick up a clearly hybridised swarm and replace the queen with one of my own or one from another treatment free beekeeper. Most of that persons bees come from wild colonies that they have caught going back over 30 years.

I have never lost an established overwintered colony. I have lost overwintered colonies that were caught swarms that didn’t make it past Nuc size by August. I take that as a sign that those bees weren’t meant to make it. I don’t treat and never feed sugar.

I would never describe the wild living bees here in Ireland as of ‘poor stock’ or a ‘danger to other pollinators’. They are meant to be there.

 

[Beesnaturally]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/367532716_Investigations_into_wild_honeybees_in_IrelandAll my bee keeping is based on caught swarms. I place my traps in areas where I know there are wild colonies living and catch more than I know what to do with. From time to time I pick up a clearly hybridised swarm and replace it with a queen of my own or a queen from another treatment free beekeeper. Most of that persons bees come from wild colonies that they have caught going back over 30 years.

I have never lost an established overwintered colony. I have lost overwintered colonies that were caught swarms that didn’t make it past Nuc size by August. I take that as a sign that those bees weren’t meant to make it. I don’t treat and never feed sugar.

I would never describe the wild living bees here in Ireland as of ‘poor stock’ or a ‘danger to other pollinators’. They are meant to be there.

I agree, the ones that can thrive alone belong far far more than anything that needs beekeeper help.

I sometimes wonder at my own practices. I like casts (nice new queens), and help them along - especially late ones. I'm aware that this is genetic interference. In nature the rate of success of all swarms is, I understand, shockingly low - something like 1 in 10 survive the first winter. So its a severe ongoing genetic sieve that favours single swarming and early swarming. In areas with slightly dryer and milder winters and with the blessing of a warm winter and a good late nectar source, more of the smaller and later swarms can expected to come through. Its all part of the benefits of variety I suppose, with individuals that would usually die remaining present in a population ready to seize the opportunity offered by a mild autumn and winter. Much food for thought.

My experience has most often been that feeble little swarms are, if you get them going, as good as any other as adults. Unlike many prime swarms that don't requeen in time.

 

[Anduril]

Nope. I don't think there is any recovery from presuming treatment free to be the same thing in the pre and post varroa introduction worlds.

We don't want people to get the wrong impression or implication that there weren't treatment free beekeepers pre varroa. I find it quite amusing that the only treatment free beekeepers have to be the here and now. Otherwise there will be a false idea that everyone treated their bees to the present day.

 

[Lislarybees]

I agree, the ones that can thrive alone belong far far more than anything that needs beekeeper help.

I sometimes wonder at my own practices. I like casts (nice new queens), and help them along - especially late ones. I'm aware that this is genetic interference. In nature the rate of success of all swarms is, I understand, shockingly low - something like 1 in 10 survive the first winter. So its a severe ongoing genetic sieve that favours single swarming and early swarming. In areas with slightly dryer and milder winters and with the blessing of a warm winter and a good late nectar source, more of the smaller and later swarms can expected to come through. Its all part of the benefits of variety I suppose, with individuals that would usually die remaining present in a population ready to seize the opportunity offered by a mild autumn and winter. Much food for thought.

My experience has most often been that feeble little swarms are, if you get them going, as good as any other as adults. Unlike many prime swarms that don't requeen in time.

Many small caught swarms do make it through the cold months no problem and build up really well then. I’m just saying where I experience ‘some’ Winter losses.

I think we all wonder at our own practises at times. You can never improve without a self audit. You are right though diversity is key and that comes from a healthy wild living population.

 

[blackcloud]

Nonsense. Is it more depleted than any desert in the world? Many places in the uk are doing pretty well.

Nature Depletion UK

You don't want to consider anyone else's input so I'll leave you in your lather

 

[Beesnaturally]

We don't want people to get the wrong impression or implication that there weren't treatment free beekeepers pre varroa. I find it quite amusing that the only treatment free beekeepers have to be the here and now. Otherwise there will be a false idea that everyone treated their bees to the present day.

I'm not sure many people will have that impression! But ok, and lets open it out a bit.

Prior to the arrival of varroa in the early 1990's we lived in a happy world in which bees thrived in apiaries, and in the areas surrounding them, and in unpopulated areas equally. Unless you were a commercial beekeeper you didn't have to fear winter losses because you could be pretty much assured of catching a swarm in the spring. When I first started in probably the mid 80's I could leave my phone number with local police stations and council offices, and be assured of collecting as many swarms as I wanted to. Some would be from free-living colonies, some from kept hives.

There were bees living freely in cavities in tree cavities and in buildings, often co-existing quite happily with their hosts. Most beekeepers and many people who kept their eyes open knew of such colonies. I expect bait hives were deployed, but at that time I didn't know that.

So, varroa arrived and perhaps 95% of the free-living bees were wiped out, along with many kept colonies. Quickly treatments began. And we entered the dark world in which treating colonies - now 95% of the population - allowed continuation of beekeeping, but inhibited the development of resistance in the remaining wild bees and in escapees.

We've also had to contend with the early problems with pesticides - now thankfully mostly overcome.

So, 30 years on, we are in the happy situation in which enough free-living bees have developed resistance and can thrive in wild colonies again - in many if not most places. We have anecdotal reports and scientific studies of the same circumstance all over the world. Once again we can collect their swarms and set out traps, bait hives. And we've got good at doing that.

The police and councils no longer offer the old service. Contacting pest controllers is however a good move.

That's my short summary of the history and where we stand.

 

[Anduril]

I'm not sure many people will have that impression! But ok, and lets open it out a bit.

Prior to the arrival of varroa in the early 1990's we lived in a happy world in which bees thrived in apiaries, and in the areas surrounding them, and in unpopulated areas equally. Unless you were a commercial beekeeper you didn't have to fear winter losses because you could be pretty much assured of catching a swarm in the spring. When I first started in probably the mid 80's I could leave my phone number with local police stations and council offices, and be assured of collecting as many swarms as I wanted to. Some would be from free-living colonies, some from kept hives.

There were bees living freely in cavities in tree cavities and in buildings, often co-existing quite happily with their hosts. Most beekeepers and many people who kept their eyes open knew of such colonies. I expect bait hives were deployed, but at that time I didn't know that.

So, varroa arrived and perhaps 95% of the free-living bees were wiped out, along with many kept colonies. Quickly treatments began. And we entered the dark world in which treating colonies - now 95% of the population - allowed continuation of beekeeping, but inhibited the development of resistance in the remaining wild bees and in escapees.

We've also had to contend with the early problems with pesticides - now thankfully mostly overcome.

So, 30 years on, we are in the happy situation in which enough free-living bees have developed resistance and can thrive in wild colonies again - in many if not most places. We have anecdotal reports and scientific studies of the same circumstance all over the world. Once again we can collect their swarms and set out traps, bait hives. And we've got good at doing that.

The police and councils no longer offer the old service. Contacting pest controllers is however a good move.

That's my short summary of the history and where we stand.

I remember those days, collecting swarms without instruction or mentor from my association and started before you, 1981 to be precise. However you are missing one point and going back to my point we still had the same viruses and notifiable diseases. Varroa are now a vector for said viruses, not a lot has changed. This is one of the reasons the NBU would not advocate to go treatment free, as soon as they put that advice up, they are becoming accountable. Beginners would become disillusioned due to their losses and leave the hobby. There are factors involved but I'm not going to go into depth.

 

[bingevader]

It's a given that the best chance of successful treatment free beekeeping is to obtain free-living genes. The quick route lies in catching, collecting, or extracting a few nice colonies of thriver-survivor bees.

And the best route to that happy position is to put out plenty of ideal homes, in ideal places.

Agreed?

I put out plenty of ideal homes and catch a few swarms, they mainly contain big, stripy orange bees from all those beekeepers who maintain they never lose swarms!

 

[bingevader]

there, fixed it for you

Nearly, you left out Mid Wales too.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nearly, you left out Mid Wales too.

Where in mid Wales? Genuinely interested

 

[Beesnaturally]

I remember those days, collecting swarms without instruction or mentor from my association and started before you, 1981 to be precise. However you are missing one point and going back to my point we still had the same viruses and notifiable diseases. Varroa are now a vector for said viruses, not a lot has changed. This is one of the reasons the NBU would not advocate to go treatment free, as soon as they put that advice up, they are becoming accountable. Beginners would become disillusioned due to their losses and leave the hobby. There are factors involved but I'm not going to go into depth.

Call me cynical but I suspect the NBU listens too much to 'stakeholders' who make too much money selling treatments and nucs.

Beginners in a thriving wild bee population are unlikely to suffer greater losses or experience disease by using wild stock. (If they buy nucs or requeen with bought stock and don't treat its a different matter). If comb is cycled and hives scorched/frames boiled before going to the field, and good placing observed, disease is generally minimised and can be eliminated.

There may be a pool of disease in wild colonies (and there are plenty of careless beekeepers about too who never get inspected), but what are you going to do, advocate exterminating them?

Its also likely that natural selection is aiding resistance to at least some diseases - in the wild.

In any case: there has always been much advocacy from breeders of varroa resistant stock to source feral genes. And there are plentiful reports of working successfully with such bees. If you can find me some _science_ that points up problems along these lines I'll be interested - till then its just part of the negative drone powered .... by people who make too much money from selling treatments and nucs. And their mates.

 

[rolande]

it won't take too long before some balloon will find a strain of feral Velutina resistant bees hiding in some

It's a given that the best chance of successful treatment free beekeeping is to obtain free-living genes. The quick route lies in catching, collecting, or extracting a few nice colonies of thriver-survivor bees.

And the best route to that happy position is to put out plenty of ideal homes, in ideal places.

Agreed?

I'm not sure that it's the best chance but it's a chance. Plenty of people putting a lot of effort into breeding for a level of varroa tolerance, even Kirk Webster bought in primorski stock to add into the mix despite having previously worked treatment free. I feel there's a lot to be gained from keeping all options open however, as stated further on, free bees ain't necessarily a bad thing and plenty of people start (or restock their dead outs) with them.

 

[Anduril]

Call me cynical but I suspect the NBU listens too much to 'stakeholders' who make too much money selling treatments and nucs.

Beginners in a thriving wild bee population are unlikely to suffer greater losses or experience disease by using wild stock. (If they buy nucs or requeen with bought stock and don't treat its a different matter). If comb is cycled and hives scorched/frames boiled before going to the field, and good placing observed, disease is generally minimised and can be eliminated.

There may be a pool of disease in wild colonies (and there are plenty of careless beekeepers about too who never get inspected), but what are you going to do, advocate exterminating them?

Its also likely that natural selection is aiding resistance to at least some diseases - in the wild.

In any case: there has always been much advocacy from breeders of varroa resistant stock to source feral genes. And there are plentiful reports of working successfully with such bees. If you can find me some _science_ that points up problems along these lines I'll be interested - till then its just part of the negative drone powered .... by people who make too much money from selling treatments and nucs. And their mates.

I'm relating an incident at the Welsh Convention with regard to the NBU and their refusal to entertain support for treatment free.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm not sure that it's the best chance but it's a chance. Plenty of people putting a lot of effort into breeding for a level of varroa tolerance, even Kirk Webster bought in primorski stock to add into the mix despite having previously worked treatment free. I feel there's a lot to be gained from keeping all options open however, as stated further on, free bees ain't necessarily a bad thing and plenty of people start (or restock their dead outs) with them.

I think here in the UK, it is easily the best chance Rolande. Not necessarily in this order, these are the reasons why I think that:

1) a whole colony, its queen, bees and its varroa, is a much better treatment-free proposition than a queen alone. It will come equipped with the low-fecundity mites that are impossible to buy.

2) A local colony from a local population will be attuned to the locality. (Admittedly treatment-dependent bees from a local breeder or non-queen-buying beekeeper may be too - but treatment-dependent bees are worth far less to your project than feral resistant ones.)

3) You can't easily buy bred-resistant queens in the UK.

4) They are free.

5) The whole caboodle, queen, workers, young bees, drones, is a perfectly balanced group ready to do the job of protecting itself and getting established. You can only get that otherwise by requeening, which costs you a colony - and then you have to wait for the new bees to come through and mature.

6) You get a real feeling that the bees you have belong to your place. There's a warmth to that.

7) For as long as things work out - you won't know how long that will be till its happened - you can believe that you live in a happy place where bees have managed to overcome the depredations of beekeepers, and are going about their proper business of working the ecology and sending sound genes into your future. And you are helping.

That, I reckon, is an unbeatable package.