Feeding

[blackie]

ahh thanks

 

[Poly Hive]

It represents work, water for bees in winter is an issue not an asset.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

thought the water in syrup was a benefit over a slab of fondant with no water in it

Wrong end of the year. Depends on whether the feed is for storing, consuming, or for brooding purposes.

 

[itma]

{from "The Midlands"}
I'm giving Ambrosia and it's going down a treat. Basically same as 2:1 sugar syrup but better. If hefting indicates they are light, how about giving fondant so that they don't have to use as much enegy processing it as compared with syrup or any nectar they can find?

why does feeding fondant use less energy than 2.1 syrup as in post 6 ? {above}

It represents work, water for bees in winter is an issue not an asset.

...
Wrong end of the year. Depends on whether the feed is for storing, consuming, or for brooding purposes.

If feeding *now*, because the hive is underweight, I'd call that feeding for storing.
And respectfully suggest that 2:1 (or Ambrosia) would be a better idea than fondant.
For right now.
But not in mid-January.

 

[thebhoy]

I am in London...two hives with one taking in plenty from the feeder and the other basically ignoring it. One hive works in all weathers - this is the one taking it in, the other doesn't appear to work in wet weather and this isn't taking it with obvious differences in stores......
Volume of work at the weekend with sooooo much pollen going in the pollen baskets looked bigger than the actual bees :O

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes I agree. Too late for syrup now.
We've had two frosts already and the forecast is for a below average Autumn temperature.

Well I am getting another delivery of 24 tonnes tomorrow morning. The poly hives, the stronger ones, are taking 10 litres of invert syrup down in 24 to 48 hours right now, and still drawing the inserted foundation. Wooden hives maybe about 24 hours longer, and they have not been getting any foundation since the end of Sept.

Poly hives will, if of normal strength, and not stuffed full, take syrup pretty well for at least another 4 weeks, even up here in E. Scotland........where we have already had several icy mornings.

Even this early, a hive not taking its syrup, other than if you have seriously overfed it, is a sure sign of 'issues'.

 

[dpearce4]

how much in total will u have bought this autumn ITLD?

 

[Into the lions den]

Fondant no or very little water.
PH

Fondant, although it varies and is sometimes higher, is about 82% solids....thus about 18% water. Very closely approximate to honey.

Talking bought in branded fondant.

 

[Into the lions den]

how much in total will u have bought this autumn ITLD?

48 tonnes. This is the second load, the first one is down to the last tank, all fed already. Part of the second load will be held over till spring. We will feed approx 27000 litres or 37.8 tonnes as autumn feed (2700 into winter at 10 litres/14Kg each).

 

[smithhive]

Well I am getting another delivery of 24 tonnes tomorrow morning. The poly hives, the stronger ones, are taking 10 litres of invert syrup down in 24 to 48 hours right now, and still drawing the inserted foundation. Wooden hives maybe about 24 hours longer, and they have not been getting any foundation since the end of Sept.

Poly hives will, if of normal strength, and not stuffed full, take syrup pretty well for at least another 4 weeks, even up here in E. Scotland........where we have already had several icy mornings.

Even this early, a hive not taking its syrup, other than if you have seriously overfed it, is a sure sign of 'issues'.

Those "issues" , in my experience are nearly always either a queenless stock or a drone layer. I expect there will be an unusally high percentage of drone layers by next spring due to the difficult mating conditions this "summer".

 

[Hivemaker.]

Even this early, a hive not taking its syrup, other than if you have seriously overfed it, is a sure sign of 'issues'.

As mentioned in an older thread.......

Not taking their feed is, in our outfit, seen as a sign of a deeper malaise.

The following can be causes.

Queenless, or if not then queen defective. ( Many poor queens bred in 2011)
Acarine
Virus thriving in same conditions as acarine.
Nosema (either type)
Stuffed full already ( as touched on elsewhere, this is a BAD thing as less young bees for winter.)
Varroa pressure, either directly or due to varroa vectored problems.

The top of the list is the most likely one. If a newbie get a local experienced person to give them a check.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13886

 

[Into the lions den]

Pretty well my list too Hivemaker.

The only other one I would add in is the pretty obvious 'colony too small'. An experienced eye spots this right away and either reduces the feed amount or does the proper thing of 'take your losses in the autumn'. Lots of inexperienced and newbies end up trying to overwinter lost causes, and do not know they are lost causes or are just not sure. Very understandable. They also do not want to accept the possible or probable death of their bees. Also very understandable, and a thing that affects even the most hardened professional.

However, using staff whose brief is simply to get out there and feed the bees...not exactly rocket science so the attendance of the top members of the teams not needed...............often results in a few being fed that really would have been best shaken out/united/left to dwindle and those are spotted a week or two later as the ones that have not taken much of the syrup.

So far the three causes noted THIS autumn are

Queen defective or absent
Small colony
Suspected acarine (1 apparently strong colony, with stores and plenty space, all the rest in the place finished their feed, this one sitting in an apparent stupour only licking up syrup if dribbled directly on them. Seen this often enough over the years to not even bother sending for analysis.) Thankfully only the one out 2000 checked. Probably just an unfortunate random genetic recombination. Happens, albeit rarely.

 

[gavin]

No chance that Nosema was behind that last one? Whatever it is, one such out of 2k is not bad going.

G.

 

[Davea]

Am I missing out on something obvious here?

Some are saying feed until they won't take amy more.
Yet at the same time the general advice is to feed them enough but not too much for fear of congestion of stores.

Some simple answers would be useful.

ITLD - Do you heft your hives or is that not practical, or do you just give a set amount per hive?


Thanks

Dave

 

[Cazza]

Am I missing out on something obvious here?

Some are saying feed until they won't take amy more.
Yet at the same time the general advice is to feed them enough but not too much for fear of congestion of stores.

Some simple answers would be useful.
Dave

The simple answer is that you have missed the point that there are few simple answers in beekeeping and many different opinions. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice.
I suspect the longer you keep bees, the less you learn to feed. I may be wrong.
I feed as little as possible and rely on hefting and experience.
Cazza

 

[Davea]

Cazza -that's exactly the same as I do.
As far as I'm concerned I don't feed until they stop taking for the reasons of congestion. However I'd like to hear the argument for feeding until they do stop and see if it has merit.

 

[itma]

Am I missing out on something obvious here?

Some are saying feed until they won't take amy more.
Yet at the same time the general advice is to feed them enough but not too much for fear of congestion of stores.

Some simple answers would be useful.

ITLD - Do you heft your hives or is that not practical, or do you just give a set amount per hive?

As per Cazza.
The "fear" is that come Spring, they may not have got through everything they have stored.
That's hopefully going to be the case almost every year. You want to avoid emergency feeding.
The problem only comes if there's a wildly excessive safety margin remaining in spring.

Aim for 20kg of stores. Or 40lb if you prefer.
No need to feed beyond that.
And if you think less is needed, then fine, go with that.

With a single-brood national, they'll have a hard job taking and storing any more than 20kg ... so, if that's your hive, feeding them until they won't or can't take any more is a useful, if simplistic, rule-of-thumb.
It isn't going to apply to our 14x12s ...


I don't believe that ITLD hefts 2000 hives ... He has written about standard feeding of x gallons of invert sugar bee-syrup per hive. I don't recall how individual hive differences are reconciled (second round of feeding, perhaps) - but then I'm operating on a much much much tinier scale...

 

[oliver90owner]

feed until they won't take amy more.
Yet at the same time the general advice is to feed them enough but not too much

It is simple. Perhaps the poster does not understand what he has been told or read. The problem arises when someone does not want to think about their particular scenario.

The problem of congestion usually arises because some start feeding heavily as soon as they take off the crop. Plainly stupid if the season is progressing with fine weather and little sign of an imminent winter arrival. Some thought needs to be applied to the situation.

However, winter will arrive and feeding will stop. The plan is to get the maximum amount of feed in the hive for that particular time. Last year it was about early December; this year it may have already arrived.

Clearly one cannot leave it all to the last moment because, as with all things with bees, we don't know when that last moment will arrive.

In the long distant past, when beeks did not have the same information on feeding as we have nowadays, they had to be conservative in their timings and put up with the consequences. Now with thymol feeds, fondant available as autumn or winter feed and advances such as polyhives and some acceptance of adequate insulation strategies there is more choice of how to prepare the bees for winter.

One clear point is that there should not be lots of 'vain' space above the cluster going in to winter and since my second season I have always attempted to either fill the hive with feed, and, if not possible, remove the excess space by packing out the unused space with dummies etc.

That (invariably?) means a less strong (smaller) colony going into winter and needing extra care. Nucs will survive the winter quite happily, given the right attention so there is no reason why a similar smaller colony in a full hive should not do the same - as long as they are healthy - with the extra input (or just install them in a well provisioned poly nuc).

Unfortunately if the organisation of the autumn feed regime is beyond the keeper then the extra finesse required to take small colonies through the winter will likely be a challenge too far.