Feed hole. To cover or not?

[Finman]

.


Orinigal question was, do he keeps feeding hole open in winter.
'The right answer was NO.


actually that habit is common here and has been as long as I remember. It comes from international books.
Here guys keep some loose material which let moisture to escape but not direct airflo. Mice love that hole too.

Solutions are from edge to edge. And many are ready to die for their holes or nonholes.

 

[Skyhook]

OK.... let me try my question another way, was there a noticable difference between this colony and the others the following season?

This is an invitro measured effect on the box with 20W input (equivalent 0.1kg sugar/day) it lost 12.8% of its temperature.

This is ~ 2W this requires the equivalent of the lifetime effort of around 20 bees to expended each day to make good this energy loss.

Yes- the other colonies had bees in them. Unless I'm reading it wrong, this was set up in an empty hive with a 20w heat source.

 

[user 6228]

Top ventilation *might* be needed with solid floors, as still used by many who have kit more than 20 years old.

But top ventilation is *not* a smart idea to combine with an open mesh floor.



/ This is a fairy story, isn't it? What happened to the witch when her plans were foiled?

top ventilation is *not* a smart idea

if you do the experiments and study the physics.. you will find out the Bees had it and have it all worked out for any kind of floor
And their answer is bottom entrance only.

 

[rolande]

Yes- the other colonies had bees in them. Unless I'm reading it wrong, this was set up in an empty hive with a 20w heat source.

Thanks for that Skyhook, glad someone was prepared to explain what he was talking about in an easily digestable manner.

That said, I think that measuring the temperature loss from a heated (but bee-less) hive is a pretty pointless thing to do, but I suppose we all have our own hobbies.

 

[user 6228]

Thanks for that Skyhook, glad someone was prepared to explain what he was talking about in an easily digestable manner.

That said, I think that measuring the temperature loss from a heated (but bee-less) hive is a pretty pointless thing to do, but I suppose we all have our own hobbies.

In Vitro is pretty self explanatory... And I dont have much time during the weekdays for lengthy experimental descriptions

This experiment and the result is about the properties of the box Not how the box changes the outcomes for bees.
Measuring bee outcomes take 20+ hives and a year to do
Measuring the properties of the box I can get a statistically significant result in 3 days

The fact still stands that it is a property of the BOX that ~10% of the heat is lost from it through this hole.

The only sigfnificant difference between bees and an electrical heat would be the moisture content of the air movement. Thus the ~10% is the lower boundary of energy loss as the increased moisture content would increase both the air velocity and heat carried per unit volume. The condensation of moisture outside the hive is in itself an additional heat loss.

 

[rolande]

This experiment and the result is about the properties of the box Not how the box changes the outcomes for bees.

Which is the bit I find pointless. Who cares about the properties of an empty box? I really fail to understand why the stated heat loss is of any importance unless it is actually tied to a definate, proven effect on a colony of bees.

 

[user 6228]

Which is the bit I find pointless. Who cares about the properties of an empty box? I really fail to understand why the stated heat loss is of any importance unless it is actually tied to a definate, proven effect on a colony of bees.

You need to do some more reading on basic science if you cant see the link.
Amazon have "Thermodynamics for dummies" I havent read this one but the first few chapters should help.

 

[mbc]

You need to do some more reading on basic science if you cant see the link.
Amazon have "Thermodynamics for dummies" I havent read this one but the first few chapters should help.

Patronising guff in that post derekm, theres nothing basic about the thermodynamics of a cluster, the comb its on and the surrounding cavity and its constrution.

 

[Skyhook]

Which is the bit I find pointless. Who cares about the properties of an empty box? I really fail to understand why the stated heat loss is of any importance unless it is actually tied to a definate, proven effect on a colony of bees.

Which is a bit like saying 'I don't care about the outcome on crash test dummies, it's what happens to people that matters.' It's quite useful if you can get some data without having to try crashing the car with real people to see what happens.

 

[rolande]

You need to do some more reading on basic science if you cant see the link.
Amazon have "Thermodynamics for dummies" I havent read this one but the first few chapters should help.

I'm sure that a book for dummies would be very appropriate for me. However, do you think that reading such a book will change the reality that I regularly winter colonies with both solid crown boards (the type that I make myself and actually prefer, because they suit the use of ashforth feeders and they're simply easier to make) and old inherited boards with feed/escape holes which I continue to use because they're 'there' and otherwise still sound. I've personally been doing this with varying numbers of colonies for a couple of decades without any (to my dummy intelligence) difference in the outcome ie. the following year's honey crop. Hence my original question, which you could have answered in plain language with a civil tone.

I'm always open to new knowledge but it really does need to be based on proven field trials, not empty boxes and assumptions.

 

[Skyhook]

In Vitro is pretty self explanatory...

Although to be fair, were you really using a glass hive?

 

[user 6228]

Patronising guff in that post derekm, theres nothing basic about the thermodynamics of a cluster, the comb its on and the surrounding cavity and its constrution.

The patronising is in your mind

So where else do you suggest I tell someone to look for a basic text on how to recognise and use the boundaries of thermal systems?

The thermodynamics of the bees in winter can be treated quite simply if you place the boundaries of the system you consider, correctly.

Such a book might enlighten someone on how one can analyse an apparently complex systems in a simple manner and yeild useful conclusions as to how the basic thermal properties of a box impact the bees.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Wiki....

Disadvantages of in vitro studies

The primary disadvantage of in vitro experimental studies is that it can sometimes be very challenging to extrapolate from the results of in vitro work back to the biology of the intact organism. Investigators doing in vitro work must be careful to avoid over-interpretation of their results, which can sometimes lead to erroneous conclusions about organismal and systems biology.

 

[Finman]

Wiki....

Disadvantages of in vitro studies

.

Why to make in vitro if you have it in vivo experience.

It is not difficult to see how much colony spend winter food in different alternatives.

Every winter has been in vivo happening.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Why to make in vitro.

Derek will need to answer this Finman, he is the chief research scientist on this project...and its in vitro.

 

[mbc]

In Vitro

The only sigfnificant difference between bees and an electrical heat would be the moisture content of the air movement. Thus the ~10% is the lower boundary of energy loss as the increased moisture content would increase both the air velocity and heat carried per unit volume. The condensation of moisture outside the hive is in itself an additional heat loss.

I think this is plain wrong, each bee is a little organic heat engine creating its own air movement, in cooperation with the rest of the cluster the fine tuning possibilities must be almost infinite, not quite the same as an electric heat source.

The patronising is in your mind.

Really ?

 

[user 6228]

I'm sure that a book for dummies would be very appropriate for me. However, do you think that reading such a book will change the reality that I regularly winter colonies with both solid crown boards (the type that I make myself and actually prefer, because they suit the use of ashforth feeders and they're simply easier to make) and old inherited boards with feed/escape holes which I continue to use because they're 'there' and otherwise still sound. I've personally been doing this with varying numbers of colonies for a couple of decades without any (to my dummy intelligence) difference in the outcome ie. the following year's honey crop. Hence my original question, which you could have answered in plain language with a civil tone.

I'm always open to new knowledge but it really does need to be based on proven field trials, not empty boxes and assumptions.

These are facts that dont need field trials:

Each extra Watt lost costs your colony 4Kg in nectar over a 100 days period if the nectar source averages 20% sugar.

 

[user 6228]

I think this is plain wrong, each bee is a little organic heat engine creating its own air movement, in cooperation with the rest of the cluster the fine tuning possibilities must be almost infinite, not quite the same as an electric heat source.



Really ?

Why dont you invite me to your BKA and i can give you a talk in detail on this...

 

[Finman]

These are facts that dont need field trials:

Each extra Watt lost costs your colony 4Kg in nectar over a 100 days period if the nectar source averages 20% sugar.

4 kg 20% nectar

It is 1 kg honey or winter food.

I know that the right answer is 10 kilos in vivo.

And you have calculated it out?


And all if you have open feeding hole?

.

 

[Elaine]

Do you keep the trap-door to you loft open during the winter?
If so how much more energy will you use heating the unlived-in part of your house?

Building regs for homes are based on the measured thermal properties of the materials used, they do not need you to be at home for valid measurements, and therefor comparisons, to be made.