fast degeneration of new bee stock

[Finman]

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I have started to try Buckfast bees. My normal bee stock is Italian. I bought first buckfasts 4 years ago.

I started to buy Italians and Buckfast from 1000 hive owner 4 years ago, and I found them good. Not all were so profitable .

But now I have noticed how fast original features of Buckfast's vanish. F1 and half of genes us left on daughter's give. Then second generation, and it is not any more Buckfast.

I have not afford to make an own Buckfast mating station for few virgins.

My basic from environment is Italian. In outer apiaries Wild Carniolan (local!) is the most usual mating partner. Virgins are only spoiled if they mate on outer apiaries. And so so the supersedure Queens. They are swarmers.

More difficult is to see, what happens to selectected Italian stock. Italians are many.

I would say that there are Italian X Italian mongrels too. IT comes from selected x unselected stocks. Difficult to see from colors, what happened on sky.

I learned to like Buckfast, but it seems, that are difficult to keep on on Italian environment. To keep 10-20 Buckfast hives is not enough to save good genes of Buckfast.

 

[Finman]

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Difficult to select mother Queens.....

When I rear own queens, I select a good behaving profitable mother Queen. But then it happens to be a hybrid and next virgin generation is from edge to edge.


Buckfast colors revieled, that Italian crossings are not so good as it seems. Mixing stocks happens.


When hives supersede in outer apiaries, they are almost useless and mist be changes.

But such it is. Continuous trial to select.

 

[For want of a better word]

You will have to import packages with queens from a breeder apparently if you want to factory farm as only huge operations can possibly supply them!

Or selectively instrumentally inseminate from your best stock.

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

You will have to import packages with queens from a breeder apparently if you want to factory farm as only huge operations can possibly supply them!

Or selectively instrumentally inseminate from your best stock.

Yeghes da

Really! What guarantee is from packages that they are better than my ordinary mongrels, what I am casting off?

10 production queens/year with II . That must be productive beekeeping after all 55 years' experience...

I recommend that you stay tightly in the National British Beekeeping Industry Planning.

 

[For want of a better word]

Really! What guarantee is from packages that they are better than my ordinary mongrels, what I am casting off?

10 production queens/year with II . That must be productive beekeeping after all 55 years' experience...

I recommend that you remain in the British Beekeeping Industry National Planning.

failed attempt at irony..

With II you should be able to requeen all of you 50 colonies with a Buckfast selection easily in one season.
BUT as you profficate so often.... it is the forage that makes all of the difference!

Yeghes da

 

[Ian123]

Finsky are the queens you purchase f1 or do you invest in a breeder or 2

 

[For want of a better word]

Finsky are the queens you purchase f1 or do you invest in a breeder or 2

I think they are new old stock?

 

[Finman]

Finsky are the queens you purchase f1 or do you invest in a breeder or 2

They are open mated. This is not so important hobby that I do my best to follow best advices.

 

[Finman]

I think they are new old stock?

And what is that? From Ice Ace ?

 

[Murox]

This is taken from Wiki..."Every new bee strain or bee race was first crossed with the existing Buckfast bee. In most cases, the new desired qualities were passed on to the new generation and the new combination was then made stable with further breeding work. Every crossing with a new race took about 10 years before the desired genes were fixed in the strain. Over 70 years, Kehrle succeeded in developing a vigorous, healthy, and fecund honey bee which he dubbed the Buckfast bee...."

If it took 10 tears to fix genetic traits with each crossing with a new race I guess its not surprising that you can loose original buck fast features quickly. As you mentioned you cannot guarantee the purity of Buckfast you had or can buy in. May be for short term benefit instrumental insemination will give you enough queens and genes to help stabilise your stocks once more.

 

[For want of a better word]

They are open mated. This is not so important hobby that I do my best to follow best advices.

Open mated.... no chance of retaining the Buckfast genetics... unless area is swamped with Buckfast drones of your choosing.

You will have to buy in breeder queens and use II or buy in from someone who "island" mates.

How do you identify you Buckfasts????

Chons da

 

[For want of a better word]

And what is that? From Ice Ace ?

Chons da

 

[Finman]

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Notice to all: I am not going to become a bee breeder or inseminator with my 20 hives.

 

[Finman]

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I just opened this thread to tell, that there are opposite forces, which ruin all beautiful breeding programs, what I have read in this forum. I am not going to become a Brother Adams II.

Many here are going to fill Air space of county with his special drone genes. I just tell that it is difficult even in your own bee yard.

New genes melt very quickly into genetic environment.

 

[Millet]

Just buy new mated Queens as and when needed.

 

[B+.]

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I just opened this thread to tell, that there are opposite forces, which ruin all beautiful breeding programs, what I have read in this forum.

Finman is completely right.
Open mating can only be successful if you have complete control of all colonies within flight range. This is unusual on land-based mating stations, so, the acceptable alternative (for mating large numbers of queens) is island mating stations which have no resident population of bees and there is strict control over drones (and also far enough offshore that drones can't fly that far).
The alternative, for smaller numbers (due to the effort involved), is to instrumentally inseminate queens. But which queens? and with semen from which drones (or more precisely, with drones from which queens)?
A single breeder, working alone, would be unable to keep a breeding programme going for long without encountering inbreeding. So, we have to work together. The only programme which does this on a large enough scale is beebreed (www.beebreed.eu).
It is important that the best individuals within a population are used to propagate the next generation. This implies that colonies are tested so their individual qualities can be compared. That, at least, is a rational approach which will lead to improvement in the stock rather than merely propagating it. Again, the only programme that I am aware of that does this is BeeBreed.
The Buckfast breeders group works along similar lines but even Br Adam injected new pure race genetics into his programme from time to time. So, the Buckfast breeders are dependent on pure race breeders

 

[TooBee...]

...
The Buckfast breeders group works along similar lines but even Br Adam injected new pure race genetics into his programme from time to time. So, the Buckfast breeders are dependent on pure race breeders

Is that still done? Do Buckfast Breeders "inject" new DNA into their Buckfast lines? Or has the improvement of the Buckfast breed by adding (for want of a better word) exotic DNA now stopped with the end of Brother Adams breeding program at Buckfast Abbey? And now the only improvement occurs by selecting from within the officially recognized Buckfast bee family/breed?

 

[B+.]

Is that still done? Do Buckfast Breeders "inject" new DNA into their Buckfast lines? Or has the improvement of the Buckfast breed by adding (for want of a better word) exotic DNA now stopped with the end of Brother Adams breeding program at Buckfast Abbey? And now the only improvement occurs by selecting from within the officially recognized Buckfast bee family/breed?

Good question, but, perhaps I should leave that to Buckfast breeders to answer.

 

[Finman]

Just buy new mated Queens as and when needed.

IT is an expencive solution. I made is couple years ago and renewed the whole genepool. But like I am saying I am loosing that genepool with good speed.

What I achieved, quite few swarming cases in recent hives during last 2 years.

 

[mbc]

I didn't think modern buckfast bees have much in common with those of Bro Adams time, other than being honey bees of mixed backgrounds.