Evil personified

[majika]

Guys thanks for all the info. I will bleed the oldies off into another box after moving the hive the night before then swap back the day after to merge back. As for a bee whisperer i would welcome anyone around the bristol area to visit as this is truely a special experience. 20 ft from the hive and i get about 10 attackers. I had to run away from the inspection 3 times to get away from the stings through 2 suits (15 stings on day 2). i am going to wear my motorcycle leathers under my suits!

Queen solution coming from either the swarm i caught today (thanks portishead beeks!) Or graft hive that is on the go.

Offer is open for sting therapy ! thanks again jamie

 

[MuswellMetro]

my granfather used to use what he called wheel barrow requeening for agressive bees

place the hive in a wheel barrow at night

on a sunny day move the old hive on the wheel barrow 15ft left then place a new hive on theold site (foundtion plus some comb, add a caged queen and relase the tab in 24hours or 5 days if attendants not reomved
day 7 move the hive and wheel barrow 15ft the other side, repeat the 15ft move every 7 days for 28 days then cull the old hive

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Well, this thread has got me flumoxed. For the last three weekly inspections (13°C & breezy, 14°C with moderate breeze and 17°C and calmish) have been getting worse behaviour from both my colonies whereas a month ago they were well behaved.

My initial thought was that the problem was environmental and would improve when the weather improved. This does not appear to be borne out by yesterday's inspection when it was 17° and calm(ish) and they still exited en masse and, after the inspection, followed me 30 metres, up to the house.

I had pretty much decided to re-queen but I read this thread and wondered whether there was something else at work here and of course it rained overnight and I'm also thinking that they were anticipating the rain.

In Cornwall, we have not had consistently warm weather for an extended period this year. Wind, rain, sunny periods in no particular order.

Will the bees behaviour improve with the weather or should the queens be for the chop? Do the beeks who remember this general pattern of behaviour happening in the past recall whether it just disappeared or did all the affected colonies have to be re-queened?

CVB

 

[For want of a better word]

Well, this thread has got me flumoxed. For the last three weekly inspections (13°C & breezy, 14°C with moderate breeze and 17°C and calmish) have been getting worse behaviour from both my colonies whereas a month ago they were well behaved.

My initial thought was that the problem was environmental and would improve when the weather improved. This does not appear to be borne out by yesterday's inspection when it was 17° and calm(ish) and they still exited en masse and, after the inspection, followed me 30 metres, up to the house.

I had pretty much decided to re-queen but I read this thread and wondered whether there was something else at work here and of course it rained overnight and I'm also thinking that they were anticipating the rain.

In Cornwall, we have not had consistently warm weather for an extended period this year. Wind, rain, sunny periods in no particular order.

Will the bees behaviour improve with the weather or should the queens be for the chop? Do the beeks who remember this general pattern of behaviour happening in the past recall whether it just disappeared or did all the affected colonies have to be re-queened?

CVB

When I lived near Wembury Point, on the coast... just over the Sound from you... my bees often showed this irrational behavior, If I could not see the Eddystone Lighthouse it would not be a good time to inspect,

... must admit tho... if I could see it, it was about to rain, if not it was raining!

??? change your smoker fuel???

Yeghes da

 

[charlievictorbravo]

When I lived near Wembury Point, on the coast... just over the Sound from you... my bees often showed this irrational behavior, If I could not see the Eddystone Lighthouse it would not be a good time to inspect,

... must admit tho... if I could see it, it was about to rain, if not it was raining!

??? change your smoker fuel???

Yeghes da

Come to think of it, I did switch from cardboard to hessian sacking (from Brazil) as a smoker fuel three inspections ago and it had not occurred to me that that could have caused the problem, although yesterday, I did not use smoke, just water spray but maybe the bees were anticipating the new smoke!

CVB

 

[B+.]

Come to think of it, I did switch from cardboard to hessian sacking (from Brazil) as a smoker fuel

Its all those Brazilian coffee beens that were in the sack....they're high on caffeine!

 

[rowbow]

Bad bee's

As to the nasty bee's, they do say that a second mating of a inseminated
queen colonys can be nasty.
As far as smoker fuel goes, I use rotten oak, dry lavender cuttings and or dry
bay leaves, works for me

 

[Alabamaeee]

I would ditch that sacking, a lot of it contains chemicals. Get rotted wood that is dry and crumbles easily, I have found it to be the best fuel to use.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I would ditch that sacking, a lot of it contains chemicals. Get rotted wood that is dry and crumbles easily, I have found it to be the best fuel to use.

Despite the very changeable weather today, we had a weather radar forecast for a dry spell and the temperature crept up to 14.6°C and the wind abated a bit (4.5mph) so I took the opportunity to do one overdue inspection (last inspection 12 days ago).

I took the above advice and used dried teabags (no powder-dry oak to hand at the moment), dried Bay leaves and brown paper in the smoker and lit up - produced good smoke.

I tried to minimise the use of smoke but nevertheless there were a lot of fliers when I opened them up although no "pingers" on the veil so not as bad as last time. I mark the bees behaviour on my record sheet on a scale of 1 to 10. Last time it was a 5 and could have been a 4; this time it was a 6, so a slight improvement and no followers to the house! Based on other reports of bad behaviour, due to changeable weather conditions, on the forum, I'll stick with this queen for a while - at least until the weather improves.

CVB

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Not sure that is true. My most productive colonies (I use productive loosely this appalling spring). My most useless foragers are also the most aggressive....should say were, as being re-queened at the moment.

I think that there can be some hybrid vigour that can occasionally cause good foragers AND defensive behaviour, but this doesn't have to be the case and a good strain of bee can be bred to give generally good qualities.

 

[jonnybeegood]

I would ditch that sacking, a lot of it contains chemicals. Get rotted wood that is dry and crumbles easily, I have found it to be the best fuel to use.

I used sacking, i washed it out & dried it before using but i too now use rotted wood, i have an old Ash tree that broke due to rot, its lovely & soft to cut ljmps out of, i dry it out in the greenhouse for a few weeks, smells lovely in the smoker especially with lavender seed pods mixed in.

 

[B+.]

some hybrid vigour that can occasionally cause good foragers AND defensive behaviour,

Hybrid vigour (heterosis) is when a colony is outbred to increase the alleles. This means the queen is able to lay more fertilised eggs. It doesn't control the foraging/defensive behaviour. This is a behavioural trait not a genetic one.

Edit: let me correct that...improved foraging/reduced defensive behaviour are phenotypical expressions which do have a genotypical component but they are also enviromental. Heterosis is genetic (although this too can be influenced by the amount workers feed the queen). What you are talking about is reduced inbreeding with heterosis.

 

[mbc]

Hybrid vigour (heterosis) is when a colony is outbred to increase the alleles. This means the queen is able to lay more fertilised eggs. It doesn't control the foraging/defensive behaviour. This is a behavioural trait not a genetic one.

Edit: let me correct that...improved foraging/reduced defensive behaviour are phenotypical expressions which do have a genotypical component but they are also enviromental. Heterosis is genetic (although this too can be influenced by the amount workers feed the queen). What you are talking about is reduced inbreeding with heterosis.

Foraging success/defensiveness can be an expression of population dynamics too, where hybrid vigour can have a massive influence. Back to the superorganism idea where looking at phenotypes of individual bees is missing the wood for the trees.

 

[B+.]

hybrid vigour can have a massive influence.

Absolutely. A large population of adult bees can express the foraging/defensive behaviour to a much greater extent than a smaller population can. Heterosis isn't the cause of that behaviour though.

 

[Finman]

.
Defensive behaviour is needed in nature when colony defends its hive and stores.

Non defensive features are made by human selection. It is based on gene errors, and when gene error is healed in cross mating, the result may return towards natural instincts. It is same with non swarming bee strains.

But when your start point is mongrels, it is difficult to talk about hydrid vigour. Results may be what ever.

 

[B+.]

.
Non defensive features are made by human selection.

I work with a closed population of pure Carniolans so the topic is relevant. Colonies are selected over many generations for 5 characteristics (a sixth: chalk brood resistance has been added relatively recently):
1. Honey yield
2. Aggression against the examiner (flying up and stinging)
3. Stability on the comb (no running or bunching up on the comb corners)
4. Varroa tolerance
5. Reluctance to swarm.
There is nothing in this to say that they do not defend their stores. In fact, they wouldn't survive the first year of testing if they didn't. They just aren't allowed to express aggression against the examiner.

You are right to say the benefits would be lost over the generations if one of my queens was used as a breeder for open mated queens. This is obvious. However, through continued testing and controlled breeding, the strain actually gets stronger (all of the above characteristics are compared to a five-year moving average and expressed as a percentage improvement , so, a queen with a breeding value of 110% for any characteristic would score 10% above the mean for all queens in the population (I understand thats about 7,000)).

 

[For want of a better word]

BIPCo use a similar scoring, but have a sixth... amount of stores required to overwinter... often quite small for the pure Cornish Amm

Score is 1 to 5.. with five the best.

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

BIPCo use a similar scoring, but have a sixth... amount of stores required to overwinter... often quite small for the pure Cornish Amm

Score is 1 to 5.. with five the best.

Yeghes da

Yes. Over-winter ability and spring build up are also measured but they are really subsidiary to those I mentioned above.
I mean to say that a colony which doesn't over-winter well or builds up slowly cannot take advantage of early nectar sources and will automatically be marked down in honey yield (which is split into three periods: < 15/6, 16/6-15/8, >15/8)

 

[Thymallus]

often quite small for the pure Cornish Amm

Are there any pure Cornish Amms?. And no Icon I'm not having a pop just asking a genuine question before you get all hissy and sarcastic.
I thought the best they managed to find by genotypying was around 68%.
B4 Projec Assuming I'm understanding the data correctly.

 

[For want of a better word]

Are there any pure Cornish Amms?. And no Icon I'm not having a pop just asking a genuine question before you get all hissy and sarcastic.
I thought the best they managed to find by genotypying was around 68%.
B4 Projec Assuming I'm understanding the data correctly.

The information that B4 is allowed to publish was only that is already in the public domain.
Defra own the IP on a plethora of DNA analyses that show the high purity of Cornish black bees ( Apis mellifera mellifera)and as it has not been published you would not be privileged to see it.

Here tell that another respected laboratory may be carrying out further DNA studies using drone DNA from selected apiaries in Cornwall under the auspices of B4 that has attracted funding to have the work carried out.. all to better understand the Cornish dimes of the native honeybee.
I do not know the technical details as yet on which type of DNA analyses will be undertaken or sampling protocols.

Yeghes da