EQCs

[Beedogg]

I have a colony which appeared Q-. I'd left in a single QC after I think the queen disappeared in a swarm 22 days ago. The QC appeared to have emerged but I hadn't seen the queen and I left the colony alone for a while on the basis that she was probably in there and I didn't want to disturb her mating flights.

So, I inspected a few days ago in the evening and still couldn't find her. It was full of quite cross bees but there was absolutely no sign of laying and so I began to fear the worst.

Yesterday I looked at it again mid-morning and eventually found the queen. She looked a decent size and was running about but it was immediately clear that she had deformed wings; they looked as if they'd been shredded and my assessment is that she'd never flown to mate. So I removed her and put in a frame of eggs and young larvae from a nuc.

My questions are: is there a stage when the bees in a colony are too old to raise brood and a new queen? These have been without a laying queen for 3 weeks and it will be another 3 or so before any new queen is laying.
And, in any event, in the circumstances I've outlined, will they immediately start to raise EQCs on the frame I put in, and how many days should I wait before inspecting to see if they have done so?

 

[enrico]

You have done everything right. Five days and remove all but one. Whilst others frown on the procedure I like to scrape off a section about 2 X 3 cm under a patch of eggs back to the foundation. That is where they will build the cells in my experience and they hang nicely down instead of being bent.

 

[Beedogg]

What is the rationale of reducing EQCs to one? They aren't, I presume, likely to swarm with the emerging queens. Would it not be better to let them sort out which one they want to keep?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is the rationale of reducing EQCs to one? They aren't, I presume, likely to swarm with the emerging queens. Would it not be better to let them sort out which one they want to keep?

As Manley wrote (quoting a well known lady beekeeper in the 1920's) 'Bees do nothing invariably' do you want to take the chance? bees have swarmed on what people thought were supersedure cells before now.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What is the rationale of reducing EQCs to one? They aren't, I presume, likely to swarm with the emerging queens. Would it not be better to let them sort out which one they want to keep?

Look up Wally Shaws snelgrove method.
Eager to try anything new I was straight in there.
My colony swarmed.
I tried again that season and it happened again
EQCs are fine left in a nuc but not a full size hive.

 

[Beedogg]

OK, thanks for that advice. I'll reduce to one then.

 

[Beedogg]

Interestingly, I went back in today aiming to knock down to one QC whatever EQCs I could find.

Colony 1 was still egg-less but, to my surprise, there were no EQCs on the test frame. There have been no eggs evident since early May, and there were still none. So I reasoned that there must actually be a non-laying queen in there somewhere even though I haven't seen one for a few weeks. So my wife and I went through it forwards then backwards, frame by frame and eventually we found her, looking quite large and healthy but plainly not laying at all. I guess that she must have failed to mate, or been infertile or whatever So, I destroyed her and put in another frame of eggs/young brood from another colony on the basis that last weeks test frame brood will maybe be too old to rear quees from now. Hopefully the bees will develop EQCs from these new eggs/larvae now. I hope I did the right thing. My only question is that if the colony had an infertile queen, why hadn't they raise supercedure cells on the test frame?

In Colony 2 (the one where I found a queen with deformed wings) I was also expecting to find EQCs on the test frame that I'd put in last week. In fact there were none there either. But there also were noticeably fewer bees. When I'd inspected last and found the deformed queen I'd also found a couple of cells which didn't to my untutored eye look like QCs, just like rather large drone cells. They were kind of 'messy' rather than nice neat QCs. I'd left them, almost certainly a mistake. On the inspection today it was clear that both had emerged and I then found a young queen running about on the frames. So it's clear that I missed to trick there. My deduction is that they must have been QCs and that upon emerging one newly emerged queen must have swarmed leaving the other behind. So I guess I now need to hope that the one I saw will mate and recommence laying.

Blimey...so much of this isn't in the books (or at least not in the ones I've read...)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

there were no EQCs on the test frame. There have been no eggs evident since early May, and there were still none. So I reasoned that there must actually be a non-laying queen

not necessarily so - the only positive result with a test frame is if they draw QCs, if they don't draw QCs then it's inconclusive and tells you nothing

 

[Beedogg]

not necessarily so - the only positive result with a test frame is if they draw QCs, if they don't draw QCs then it's inconclusive and tells you nothing

OK, but if the queen I eventually found was not laying after, say, three weeks then doesn't that imply that she was either infertile or unmated?

Obviously I hope I didn't jump to the wrong conclusions...

 

[enrico]

Personally I think you were a bit premature! Queen's do go off lay for various reasons but usually come back! Three weeks is not uncommon. I guess we will never know so don't worry. They will come right in the end

 

[Beedogg]

OK, well I may have jumped the gun.

How long is too long to leave it? Is there a point at which the bees in a Q- colony are just too old to raise QCs and then be around to raise new brood when the new queen starts laying?

 

[elainemary]

OK, well I may have jumped the gun.

How long is too long to leave it? Is there a point at which the bees in a Q- colony are just too old to raise QCs and then be around to raise new brood when the new queen starts laying?

Generally it’s said, young nurse bees that feed brood or cells to make queens, perform that role for around 1-3weeks before moving on to other duties (such as undertaking, receiving honey to move into the supers, guarding and foraging). However this is very fluid and the colony will adjust to whatever circumstances (within reason!) the beekeeper throws at them.
They won’t have been feeding much brood recently so will be living longer and should be up to the job. Just make sure if you don’t have a flow on now (suspect you will!) or weather is bad the colony is well fed with open stores and good pollen (or pollen sub)

Best advice I was given is always have a queen cage in your pocket. When in doubt (which I often am!) you can stick her in the cage and leave her wedged between 2 frames in the hive whilst you ponder, make a cup of tea or phone a friend / come on here to ask for advice. The bees will continue to look after her and you’ll easily find her when you go back in

 

[Beedogg]

I think that that's excellent advice. Thank you. There have many times (even in my short bee-keeping time) when I've pondered whether or not I did the right thing. Time to think is very important.

 

[Beedogg]

And is the queen cage you have in mind the same sort of cage that you would use to introduce a queen to a Q- colony?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just carry an empty nuc with you on an inspection, if you find the queen, you can just pop her on the frame into the middle of the nuc until you complete the inspection, then if you find QCs it's a simple matter of moving her and her frame to whatever your chosen A/S swarm is.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just carry an empty nuc with you on an inspection, if you find the queen, you can just pop her on the frame into the middle of the nuc until you complete the inspection, then if you find QCs it's a simple matter of moving her and her frame to whatever your chosen A/S swarm is.

Yep. That’s what I do. Saves fiddling around with the queen and her flying off

 

[elainemary]

And is the queen cage you have in mind the same sort of cage that you would use to introduce a queen to a Q- colony?

Any type of cage. I use this type and you can easily thread a cocktail stick through to balance across 2 brood frames. There are lots of different types, they will all work. The nurse bees will feed the queen through the holes and pick up her pheromone. Best leaving her not too long (day or so while you ponder) as you might have the odd supersedure type cell if left in the cage too long as some of her pheromones won’t reach the colony in the usual way (e.g. her footprint pheromone).
If you don’t want to pick her up (I just lift her by her wings and pop her in),
you can place the opened cage over her and slowly and gently slide or close the cage over her, watching all the time so nothing gets trapped! Just needs a bit of practise and I’ve never lost a queen putting into a cage. Good skill to learn, for general queen introduction