Epi pen for personal use only!

[MartinL]

Oh! Dear!,

Anaphylaxis kills people plain and simple !

VM

Yes, and the tight control of eppipens ensures that a greater number are not negligently hospitalized or killed through willy-nilly doctor/ nurse play by well meaning, lay practitioners.

We must remember that whatever we negligently administer to our bees the resulting effect is on the colony only.

i.e. No one will die from our negligence

Eppipens are still not contained, in even the more leading edge first aid kits.
Some of which may even contain Morphine!
With this in mind surely an eppipen should NOT be treated as a common or garden "cure-all" to be administered by the untrained!

Another reason for GP reluctance to prescribe might be the actual cost of the item @ £50!

 

[victor meldrew]

Yes, and the tight control of eppipens ensures that a greater number are not negligently hospitalized or killed through willy-nilly doctor/ nurse play by well meaning, lay practitioners.

We must remember that whatever we negligently administer to our bees the resulting effect is on the colony only.

i.e. No one will die from our negligence

Eppipens are still not contained, in even the more leading edge first aid kits.
Some of which may even contain Morphine!
With this in mind surely an eppipen should NOT be treated as a common or garden "cure-all" to be administered by the untrained!

! [/B][/SIZE]

Tosh , and by the way with spectacles I have 20/20 vision, so please less of the street furniture sized text .
No one will die from our negligence ? shouldn't that read 'No one will be blamed for negligence when some poor soul has passed on whilst a readily available epipen hasn't been deployed and the necessary time bought whilst awaiting for the emergency services ?
There are people in this world who will help.
There are people in this world who will wail and look the other way.
Then there are people in this world bleating about how bad a situation is, actively advising against any form assistance and claiming at the same time claiming the moral high ground .
The latter being the worst types in my opinion !
VM

 

[viridens]

It all seems to be a case of probability versus preparedness, & maybe responsibility versus control freakery.

For example I live in an area with a population of adders, and I have been bitten myself, but I don't feel the need to petition my GP for Zagreb antivenum (which I was given) just in case, even though I know the nearest source is more than an hour's journey away.

I also have Belladonna (and many other poisonous plants) in my garden, but I don't seek a supply of Physostigmine to treat accidental poisoning.

I consider the probability of a visitor or family member being stung by bees AND unwittingly being allergic to the point of needing immediate epipen treatment to ensure survival to be in the same risk category as those above.

 

[MartinL]

It seems clear that an eppipen is not a "band aid" to be administered willy-nilly by the untrained who arrogantly think that they have correctly diagnosed AS. The warnings are there, clear as day.
If these valuable devices were easily accessible there would me more hospitalizations and possible deaths from their misuse than currently from bee stings!
I once thought it would be an ideal inclusion for the first aid kit.
However having taken the qualified advice form those who know, I have not buried my head in the sand thinking that I know better. As a result will not make an arrogant and negligent (if well meaning) decision that kills an innocent person!


V M chose not to quote that another possible reason for GPs' reluctance to prescribe might be the actual cost of the item @ £50!

Asking your GP to write a prescription for an item not for your own use is avoiding payment!!!! Possible fraud especially if you do not pay for your prescriptions.

 

[BBG]

Use of word "num-nuts"

Not meant as insult, merely jocular 'endearment' to a wayward soul in the same craft.

 

[Chris Luck]

Hold on to your seats, this could be a first, I'm in agreement with VM, (JW?) on this and I have one prescribed even though I generally have little or no reaction to bee stings BUT if I should trip over and find myself covered in stings OR should one of my gentle colonies be in a foul temper one day for reasons of their own I like to have it handy, especially where I live.

Also in France we have a law which demands that any person present at any incident involving injury or accident must provide all life saving assistance or other appropriate care that is within their means - you would in fact be prosecuted for doing nothing, so that could be interesting as well regarding others.

Chris

 

[drstitson]

"in France we have a law which demands that any person present at any incident involving injury or accident must provide all life saving assistance or other appropriate care that is within their means - you would in fact be prosecuted for doing nothing."

AFAIK This is essentially the situation in the UK BUT it is assumed by the law that 99% of the population have no level of first aid/resus training. However, should a doctor, nurse or paramedic stand by and watch someone die of a cardiac arrest without administering CPR then they would be liable since there is an expectation in law that they should act to best of their ability/training.

So the moral is not to identify oneself as trained if not willing to wade in as it could come back to bite you. That is why AFAIK probably the majority (or a good proportion) of medics do not identify themselves as Dr for passport purposes.

 

[victor meldrew]

V M chose not to quote that another possible reason for GPs' reluctance to prescribe might be the actual cost of the item @ £50!

Asking your GP to write a prescription for an item not for your own use is avoiding payment!!!! Possible fraud especially if you do not pay for your prescriptions.

For the sake of making a point you have just qualified my thoughts !
You are indeed a silly little attention seeker !
I'll debate all day with the reasonable but fielding nonsense isn't my ball game !
Debate over .
I hope you are never in the position where after a stinging ,you are slipping into unconsciousness and looking appealingly at someone shrugging their shoulders saying " This epipen is for my use , I cannot, will not assist you , you had better last until the emergency services arrives, I dare not take the risk!!!"
Vm
Don't expect a response ,head banging is something I gave up on in the 70s

 

[Phil280]

Hi there.

Interesting how every country has their own way of dealing with first aid.

The reply I received from the austrian red cross was that I am to administer nothing even if I could...and I could with my car full of medication and gear.
I would be prosecuted and lose my license.

If my girlfriend or family member had an AS I personally would act and "help them" apply my EpiPen on themselves...but because I know what conditions they have or don't have.
Officially its a No Go here - which is why I officially do not recommend it.

Greets
Phil

 

[madasafish]

Worth reading:
http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.pdf

Particularly section "a claim for negligence"..

 

[redpola]

How disingenuous.

What evidence have you weighed in making said decision to inject girl friend - please list sources.

It seems it's your turn to be disingenuous. Google "Anaphylaxis" and you will find plenty of authoritative sources of information on the subject.

The NHS symptoms page helps you diagnose the attack to the point of calling an ambulance and the site also gives the advice "An injection of an anti-allergy medicine called adrenaline should be give as soon as a reaction is suspected.".

I am assuming that since you've challenged me to prove I can type "anaphylaxis" in a search engine and then read and understand a web page, you're quite probably bored of this discussion and are trolling.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider the minimum due diligence when faced with a life or death decision, and specifically one concerning a loved one?

Are you sure that the unborn child she is carrying will be just another num-nuts like you after your injection.

OR

Could it be born needing permanent care from its loving, dedicated father hell-bent on being a hero, who caused said problems for his and her families by refusing to listen to his doctor.

Who on earth would not know the person they love is pregnant? If this is your sole justification that I watch my girlfriend die, then it's pretty weak. Do you have a better and more quantitative argument than this?

I'm specifically arguing for my personal freedom to make a decision. You seem to be trying to save the world. If you're trying to be a hero then please provide some concrete figures.

If the girl friend is suspect allergic get her to see doctor.

She isn't. You could maybe do a little research to find out that you don't have to be suspected allergic to die from anaphylaxis. Maybe your reasoning is that because you can't be bothered then nobody else will be?

Neil.

 

[redpola]

Actually, now I've just read my response to BBG, I think that my continuing this discussion is me trolling.

So as they say in the Dragon's Den, I'm out.

I'm happy - I can now save my life and my loved one's if the situation arises, and I'm pleased I've been afforded the freedom to make that decision.

I feel sorry for those whose GPs aren't sympathetic and sincerely hope they are never in a position to ultimately regret the decision they couldn't make.

One last comment - specifically to address the comments about prescriptions. Epi Pens come on private prescriptions, even from a normal doctor. I had to pay £40 for my pen, so the barrier to accessibility is quite high.

Neil.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Never one to let a good barney die down, I'd like to just add a couple of things....

1. An epipen costing £50 is not necessarily likely to put GPs off prescribing them. Indeed, if it is a dispensing practice, they are likely to make a profit from dispensing it (and any drugs for that matter). GPs practices are private businesses - It is the NHS (in the form of the Primary Care Trust or Local Health Board) that foots the bill.

2. Are there any recorded instances of anyone being killed by innappropriate use of an epipen? If so, are there more or less than the number killed by anaphylaxis? Without knowing this we are all just hypothesizing.

3. If implying somebody's potentially damaged unborn child is a numb-nuts is jocular endearment, I'd hate to hear what a thoughtless insult was.

 

[oliver90owner]

One stupid question here, for someone to jump on.

Why, if I am not to even consider injecting, should I have had formal training in the administering of an epi-pen injection? I am neither the recipient for the epi-pen contents and may not know the person beforehand.

Just seems that common sense is missing in a lot of these discussions.

 

[wilderness]

My doctor prescribed me an Epipen "just in case" and didn't explain how to use it. She has now emigrated to Australia ....

A fellow beekeeper attended our 2 weekly apiary meetings and got stung a few times with the usual local swelling.

However, he got a single sting whilst watching his bees and had an anaphalactic reaction. He was found unconscious by his wife and ended up in A&E.

If he had had an Epipen, I wonder if he would have had enough time to administer it before collapsing?

 

[Hivemaker.]

My doctor prescribed me an Epipen "just in case" and didn't explain how to use it. She has now emigrated to Australia ....

Did she emigrate on purpose,just to avoid letting you know how to use the thing.

 

[drstitson]

"Epi Pens come on private prescriptions, even from a normal doctor. I had to pay £40 for my pen, so the barrier to accessibility is quite high."

AFAIK epi-pens are standard NHS prescription items (including in the NHS Drug Tariff). It is illegal for your NHS GP to offer you an NHS "service" on a private basis. PCT should be informed.

BTW NHS price for epipens is £26.45!!!!! (of course you should only pay NHS prescription charge).

"Any registered doctor can provide a private prescription. However a GP in the surgery at which you are registered can only provide a private prescription if the drug is not available on the NHS."

 

[viridens]

I repeat, surely this is a matter of preparedness versus probability.

I note that fatalities from bee, + HORNETAND WASP stings total 4 per year, making this cause of death just twice as likely as being struck by lightning (2 deaths per year), and half as likely as suffocating in bed (8 deaths).

Source: Office of National Statistics mortality data for 2009 (the latest year available) tabulated at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/14/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2009

-And this is without epipens alongside every hive.....

Another relevant quote:

"....If allergic to the stinging insect’s venom, these people might develop an allergic reaction, which may range from mild to life threatening. On average four Bee or Wasp sting anaphylaxis deaths are reported per year in the UK. You are therefore more likely to die in a Road Traffic Accident rushing to hospital than from the actual sting itself....."

Source: http://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/more-about-allergy/wasp-allergy/

This thread is generating a lot of heat.. Let's Keep a sense of proportion.


.

 

[Mike a]

Glad to say I had several minutes before the full effects of the venom started to effect me, but your friend Wilderness must of chosen to ignore several warning signs before fainting. I understand we are all different but to ignore some or all of these.... hot, sweaty, feeling sick, mouth and lips tingling, vision and hearing fading and finally for me staggering (feeling faint)....

 

[Hivemaker.]

hot, sweaty, feeling sick, mouth and lips tingling, vision and hearing fading and finally for me staggering (feeling faint)....

I have known several people having the very same symtoms,while waiting for opening time down the local pub.