Emerged supersedure cell?

[Repwoc]

Inspected a nuc my out apiary today. This is a AS nuc containing the original queen. Until recently I have been bleeding off frames of sealed brood into the original hive, but the new queen is now laying well so now they have built up and are ready to be re-hived. Strong nuc, brood on 5 frames, green marked queen present and seen. Then I spotted this:



It looks like an emerged QC. There were no other QCs in any stage. I didn't spot another queen in the colony.

Is this an emerged cell? Or have the bees torn it down?

 

[madasafish]

Is this an emerged cell? Or have the bees torn it down?

Emerged ? End cap removed.
Torn down? Cut from side.

Torn down.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Emerged ? End cap removed.
Torn down? Cut from side.

Torn down.

+1. Plus emerged has a cocoon case which torn down (depending on stage: this one looks quite late) often does not. They often do this sort of thing when upset, or to new Qs. Factions after a merge etc etc.

 

[Repwoc]

OK thanks. Torn down was my assessment, good to have confirmation. I suppose removing frames of brood on several occasions could have upset them.

 

[bobthecob]

Useful post and answers - many thanks. Just one thought occurs. One major benefit of a swarm (or artificial swarm) is the long brood break in the "queenless" part of the split, which knocks the varroa level right down. By continually transferring capped brood from the queen-right nuc to the "queenless" original hive, aren't you just topping up their varroa level, and undoing the major benefit of a split from a varroa point of view? Just a thought. Of course, treating for varroa would undo some of this damage, so perhaps not an issue. But I try to keep my artificial swarms as close to the natural process as possible for this reason.

 

[jeff33]

Useful post and answers - many thanks. Just one thought occurs. One major benefit of a swarm (or artificial swarm) is the long brood break in the "queenless" part of the split, which knocks the varroa level right down. By continually transferring capped brood from the queen-right nuc to the "queenless" original hive, aren't you just topping up their varroa level, and undoing the major benefit of a split from a varroa point of view? Just a thought. Of course, treating for varroa would undo some of this damage, so perhaps not an issue. But I try to keep my artificial swarms as close to the natural process as possible for this reason.

You don't do split to reduce varroa levels, you split to increase and/or avoid swarming. By topping up with brood frames you ensure that both halves remain healthy and have sufficient amount of new bees. You can treat for varroa.

 

[Repwoc]

aren't you just topping up their varroa level, and undoing the major benefit of a split from a varroa point of view?

Yes I think that's true. I'll deal with the varroa with the autumn and mid-winter treatments.

 

[bobthecob]

You don't do split to reduce varroa levels, you split to increase and/or avoid swarming. By topping up with brood frames you ensure that both halves remain healthy and have sufficient amount of new bees. You can treat for varroa.

It might not be your main aim, but varroa reduction is a major benefit of an artificial swarm, if done in a certain way. Treating helps too, but for me, the more measures I can do to hit varroa, the better. But anyway, just thought I would flag it.

To quote Prof Seeley:

"You can achieve Varroa control by artificial swarming, but it will be work best if the “split” with the mother queen has little or no brood (just like in a swarm-founded colony), and if the “split” with the capped queen cells has mostly sealed brood (so that this colony will soon go through a block of time with little or no sealed brood."

 

[jeff33]

It might not be your main aim, but varroa reduction is a major benefit of an artificial swarm, if done in a certain way. Treating helps too, but for me, the more measures I can do to hit varroa, the better. But anyway, just thought I would flag it.

To quote Prof Seeley:

"You can achieve Varroa control by artificial swarming, but it will be work best if the “split” with the mother queen has little or no brood (just like in a swarm-founded colony), and if the “split” with the capped queen cells has mostly sealed brood (so that this colony will soon go through a block of time with little or no sealed brood."

Yes and I was trying to highlight perhaps for the less experienced beeks that you don't simply split for varroa treatment.

Prof Seeley is very found of his wild colonies so this quote may perhaps be taken in the context of no treatment alongside it? I use sublimation so varroa treatment for me is a '5 minutes job' per hive. I will treat both halves when I split and keep a careful eye on mite drops throughout the season.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

One major benefit of a swarm (or artificial swarm) is the long brood break in the "queenless" part of the split, which knocks the varroa level right down.

Can you explain to us how this comes about?
The mites will still be there but living on (and off the) the bees - first sign of brood and they'll be in there like a shot.

 

[bingevader]

Can you explain to us how this comes about?
The mites will still be there but living on (and off the) the bees - first sign of brood and they'll be in there like a shot.

All but the phoretic phase of the varroa's life cycle is removed.
He said it was a knock back, not a cure.
If you could treat then as well, that would help even more.

 

[bobthecob]

As bingevader said.

Mites reproduce in brood cells. No brood cells, no reproduction. Without reproduction the mite population can't increase. Combine that with some natural mite death, and some natural grooming behaviour, and you see a significant dip in the otherwise-ever-increasing mite load chart.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

yeah, right

 

[Erichalfbee]

A brood free period simply halts reproduction. Very few mites die of old age during this period so there is no knock back of population at all.
Varroa has no phoretic phase. It is parasitic on the bee all the time unless it’s in a brood cell.
The greatest advantage of a brood free period is that you can annihilate the mite population with one quick treatment.

 

[bingevader]

Varroa has no phoretic phase.

Beg your pardon, Dispersal Phase.

It is parasitic on the bee all the time unless it’s in a brood cell.

So not all the time.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Beg your pardon, Dispersal Phase.

So not all the time.

How do you mean?
When is varroa a free living creature?
Edit
I see. It’s what the scientists have re named the phoretic phase but even in the dispersal phase the mite is parasitic which is what I said. There is a brief period where a mite, having detached itself from its exhausted food supply to attack another bee, can be spotted riding in the thorax.