Dummy board, daft question.

[Tomo]

Hi,
This will probably sound daft.
If you gather the frames together in a full size BB eg 5-6 then put a dummy board next to them, surely the girls will want to fill the large space the other side of the DB with comb? or do you put in frames with foundation the other side of the DB anyway?

 

[victor meldrew]

Not usually, especially if the void is filled will a lump of modern sacking ie a roll of bubble wrap .
VM


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[drstitson]

if doing this why not just use a nice poly nuc box?

otherwise space can be filled with slices of kingspan.

 

[alanf]

...If you gather the frames together in a full size BB eg 5-6 then put a dummy board next to them, surely the girls will want to fill the large space the other side of the DB with comb? or do you put in frames with foundation the other side of the DB anyway?...

If a colony doesn't fill the deep box, I use a divider board. That's like a dummy but extended to the walls, top and bottom and I make it with Celotex, the foam edges protected with foil tape. If it's a time of year when they are expanding, they get a frame or two with foundation on "their" side. If there is still space beyond the divIder board, then another frame or two with foundation can be stored there waiting to be swapped in next visit.

 

[victor meldrew]

if doing this why not just use a nice poly nuc box?

otherwise space can be filled with slices of kingspan.

Fine if you have the gear but a dividing board costs nothing ,also expansion can be dealt with without the need to transfer into a larger hive ?
VM


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[itma]

if doing this why not just use a nice poly nuc box?

otherwise space can be filled with slices of kingspan.

Keep them in a poly nuc until they are filling that and have plenty of brood.

For comb drawing you need all of - warmth, fuel (nectar flow or syrup) and lots of bees.
They won't draw more comb than they think they need, so you need to watch that they don't get over congested and think of swarming. Foundation doesn't give them 'space' until it is drawn to comb.
Using Kingspan/Celotex/whatever to be an insulating space-filler and top insulation helps the bees get most value from their energy budget.
Start with just one new frame of foundation. Once there are more bees, you can give them two to work on simultaneously, at opposite sides of the brood.
If they fill frames with stores, take those frames away (for the time being). Always ensure that there is *brood* space and no great reserve of stores. (They aren't going to starve if you are feeding, but a lack of stored-stores should help deter, but not necessarily prevent, swarming.)
When you return any full frames, (likely when you put in the last frame of foundation), that would be a good time to take away the syrup feeder.


Getting a nuc to draw out a complete broodbox without being tempted to swarm, is actually quite a challenge for the novice beekeeper. One needs to be watching closely and responding to the bees with additional foundation and more (or less) feeding as appropriate. And yes, as with so many things, a clear crownboard makes it easier! (This is about the only time a clear feeder board (with a hole) is worthwhile - otherwise clear with no-hole and ply with hole(s) for feeding and clearing is the way I go.

 

[victor meldrew]

No need for all the palaver .
Bees swarm quicker by being over crowded rather than having too much room after all . With the dividing board you have created a nuc ,infact the better way would be to fill the void with another embryo colony , they would then keep each other warm ?
VM


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[Arfermo]

No need for all the palaver .

Couldn't agree more. Why make a simple problem more difficult. Beekeeeping is meant to be as simple as possible without pointless palaver.

 

[Hivemaker.]

No need for all the palaver .

I agree...very easy job, best not to over complicate things.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Not usually, especially if the void is filled will a lump of modern sacking ie a roll of bubble wrap.

So, if I understand your answer correctly, you're saying that "yes", they may well try to fill up the void if there is a void, right?

The way I understood the OP's question initially was how to deal with the fact that these bees may start building comb in an inorderly fashion on the other side of the dummy board. That would be my main fear as well, and that is why I would fill up that space with frames (with or without foundation).

 

[victor meldrew]

If you are filling up with frames why bother with a dividing board !
Bees don't heat the air inside a hive they maintain a temperature within the cluster which expands and contracts according to the ambient temperature . When the ambient temperature is too low ,brooding is put on hold ?
VM


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[enrico]

So, if I understand your answer correctly, you're saying that "yes", they may well try to fill up the void if there is a void, right?

The way I understood the OP's question initially was how to deal with the fact that these bees may start building comb in an inorderly fashion on the other side of the dummy board. That would be my main fear as well, and that is why I would fill up that space with frames (with or without foundation).

Good point but in my opinion they will rarely try and fill the void if ever, they know the dummy board is there and they don't split the brood area in this manner, I wouldn't say it will never happen but I would say I have never had it happen.... Hope that helps
E

 

[pargyle]

So, if I understand your answer correctly, you're saying that "yes", they may well try to fill up the void if there is a void, right?

The way I understood the OP's question initially was how to deal with the fact that these bees may start building comb in an inorderly fashion on the other side of the dummy board. That would be my main fear as well, and that is why I would fill up that space with frames (with or without foundation).

The dividing board is intended to keep them out of the void the other side of it ... if it's not a perfect seal you will always get an odd explorer bee or two in the space but they seem to find their way back. You will only get them filling the void with comb if they don't have enough space in the area you have given them, so you need to keep an eye open on how fast they are drawing comb and make sure they always have one empty frame at the end to go at if they want to. They will stop building when they feel they have enough comb drawn out .... sometimes they will stop about half way through a frame and the cells stay empty then, for reasons best known to them, they will start again and finish the frame off - and still not put anything in the cells ! Mine drew out almost a full frame of comb and left it empty for a month or so before they decided to use it ... they know what they are doing I presume. Obviously utilising available labour when there's raw materials available and plenty of young bees to make the wax but not enough to fill it with stores.

I fill the void outside of the divider board with Kingspan but a poly bag filled with straw, wood chips or polystyrene chips will do the job ... don't put something in there that will absorb moisture though. If it's absorbent put it in a poly bag and seal it up.

 

[itma]

So, if I understand your answer correctly, you're saying that "yes", they may well try to fill up the void if there is a void, right?

The way I understood the OP's question initially was how to deal with the fact that these bees may start building comb in an inorderly fashion on the other side of the dummy board. That would be my main fear as well, and that is why I would fill up that space with frames (with or without foundation).

No, rather they would hesitate to build on the other side at all.
No absolutes, but that is the less likely outcome.
And the colder and draughtier their nest, the slower they will build up.

It is not about winter clustering, it is about maintaining brood nest temperature in spring, and enabling them to get more bees up to the even higher temperature needed for wax-making for comb-drawing.

However, admittedly, a slower build-up is easier for the novice beek to manage ...

In decent weather, with available food, in time, given a box simply filled out with foundation frames, they will likely eventually use it.
But they may (probably will) still need some 'management', filling frames with excess food and, unless rectified, blocking themselves in!
With more and better management, they should build faster, and do better - which, after all, is the big idea.

 

[ugcheleuce]

If you are filling up with frames why bother with a dividing board!

I'm afraid your question doesn't make sense to me. A dummy board used as a divider board is used for a specific purpose. That purpose is not affected by what you choose to fill up the rest of the box with.

If there is a risk that the bees will go to that space and strart building comb, you can either make peace with the fact that you'd have to clean out their comb, or give them frames to build the comb in, so that the comb is not wasted.

 

[itma]

If you are filling up with frames why bother with a dividing board !

I'm afraid your question doesn't make sense to me. A dummy board used as a divider board is used for a specific purpose. ...

In English terminology, dummy and divider boards are different.

A divider board seals to the sides of the hive (and DerekM makes the point that hive warmth is only really improved if it also seals well to the coverboard). Divider boards can, in principle, allow more than one colony to share the same box without sharing space. Used like that ('cold way' of course) they should extend to contact the floor.
Many of us use sheets of insulation board to divide the box just between the part for the bees and the part where they aren't welcome (the void filled with more insulation of some sort).

Dummy boards have the same 'board' area (and therefore beespace around) as a standard frame. But they must present a flat face to the comb (side to side across the last frame's hoffmans) leaving the same beespace as though that frame was up against a hive wall. And for (later) use as a "12th frame" in a National, they must be thinner than a standard frame - otherwise you'd be better with a 12th real frame!
Dummy boards don't seal to the hive sides, and don't (on their own) make much difference to colony warmth. What they do do, in the case of an expanding nuc, is constrain the colony, allowing the beekeeper to manage the situation and get combs fully drawn to the bottom of the frame.


// ADDED FOR CLARITY -- I'd advocate using both for an expanding nuc - a Celotex divider to roughly limit the space and thus heat loss, plus a dummy board to keep the end frame tidy (similar comb width to the other frames, never more)

 

[rogerb]

Hi,
This will probably sound daft.
If you gather the frames together in a full size BB eg 5-6 then put a dummy board next to them, surely the girls will want to fill the large space the other side of the DB with comb? or do you put in frames with foundation the other side of the DB anyway?

No such thing as a daft question, you might get some daft answers though;

If it’s winter and your using the dummy board to enclose a small colony (nuc) to help it through, then close it up tight and even fill in the void gap on the other side for insulation, but it may have been better to combine it and cut your losses, you need to be the judge of that (but with care you can get some pretty weak ones through if it suits you).

If it’s summer, and it’s warm then just put in frames of foundation, and as the bees fill them up don’t be too scared to move undrawn ones in towards the middle, they HATE having undrawn foundation in the brood area and will draw it for you more quickly if you do this (but not right in the middle as this may be too much for them), only take care that there is a flow on (or feed them) and that there are enough bees to keep it all cosy. So in this case don’t bother with the board.

If it’s summer and it’s cold (it often is up here) then put one frame of foundation either side of whatever is drawn and then use the board to minimise the space to be warmed, keep checking (once a week) and add more foundation as required, as a guide do not let the outer foundation get more than 50% to 80% drawn before you add the next sheet(s). The reason not to add them all at the start by the way is that they tend to chew up the wax foundation and do nothing to draw it out, when it is cold, and you just end up having to take it out and replace it, or put up with messy comb.

In terms of filling the empty space, this has never happened to me, I would expect them to swarm before they filled up the empty side, but I cannot think I ever gave them the option. That may sound a little odd but with this sort of colony you spend all your time pushing them to fill brood frames to get them to strength so the overcrowding tends not to happen, maybe I should try an experiment one day………..

 

[Tomo]

My point really: was why are there gaps around a DB, which allows bees around into the void, which then would start building wild comb, even if they haven't drawn out the foundation on their side (Murphies law comes in to play).
It makes sense to me to put in a full size cellotex blank and move it across.
- incidentally where is the best place to get a small sheet of cellotex?
I know a DB is used to get a start when inspecting a full bb, and/or for creating in effect a smaller box for heat preservation etc. just thought it made sense not to have the gaps and tempt fate.

 

[ugcheleuce]

If you are filling up with frames why bother with a dividing board!

I'm afraid your question doesn't make sense to me. A dummy board used as a divider board is used for a specific purpose. That purpose is not affected by what you choose to fill up the rest of the box with.

In English terminology, dummy and divider boards are different.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but the original question was about a dummy board being used for what one would normally use a divider board for.

 

[itma]

My point really: was why are there gaps around a DB, which allows bees around into the void, which then would start building wild comb, even if they haven't drawn out the foundation on their side (Murphies law comes in to play). ...

Because a dummy board isn't meant for dividing the hive!
It is meant for 'bookending' the last frame.
It has beespace around it so that it can be removed without any fuss whatsoever at the beginning of a frame inspection.

Second point, bees don't deliberately do things the hard way (for them). Quite the reverse! (The beekeeper has to make what he wants into the natural easy thing for the bees to do.)
They won't go round the dummy board and draw comb in the void unless that is easier (for them) than the other options. Drawing comb in a cool draughty void isn't an easy option.

That said, dummy boards and divider boards aren't alternatives. Use both!



Wickes sell 50mm thick Celotex in 1200x400 sheets (which fit into a car easily, unlike the big sheets) for about £6 each. Other brands and suppliers are available.