drone laying queen's drones, are they any good for mating?

[joelsoo]

hi i have a hive ( hive 3) that i noticed that majority of cells built from this hive are drone cells. (lots of them and frames are built quite messily!) the overwintered old queen may have ran out of sperm and laid a bunch of drone brood before supercedure.. i did spot a new mated queen with some eggs (not alot as due to poor weather..)

i am requeening another 2 hives (hive 1 and 2) naturally as i saw supercedure queencells, kept 1 per hive and knocked out the rest. i now wonder if the drones from hive1 that had recently requeened mentioned above are any good if they are from the old queen that may have became a drone layer?

With Hive 3, if the frames are now slightly messy due to drone laying i guess maybe its time to change the comb presume the colony will not use old drone cells for worker brood?

thoughts?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The only thought that's hit me is

i am requeening another 2 hives (hive 1 and 2) naturally as i saw supercedure queencells, kept 1 per hive and knocked out the rest.

What made you think it was supersedure if you found multiple QC's in the hive - that screams 'swarming!' at me

 

[Erichalfbee]

The drones are fine.
The other two hives? If there were multiple cells they are likely swarm cells and I’d be straight back in to see what’s going on and if the queens are still there AS, if not then check for more cells.
What made you think they were supersedure cells?

 

[joelsoo]

The only thought that's hit me is

What made you think it was supersedure if you found multiple QC's in the hive - that screams 'swarming!' at me

umm the QCs are all on the face of the frames, none below the frames, despite frames having some queen cups below. both hives are also demareed as swarm control.. also i seem to have lost the queens and did not see any brood/eggs.

or she could have gone off lay because of this bad weather we had for past 2.5 weeks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

umm the QCs are all on the face of the frames, none below the frames,

Notwithstanding the rest of the information you have now decided to supply - note to beginners the position of the QC on the frame has very little to do with indicating the intention of the bees

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

both hives are also demareed as swarm control.. also i seem to have lost the queens and did not see any brood/eggs.

so, when you say 'swarm control' did you find QC's in the hive before you conducted the Demarree?

 

[Erichalfbee]

both hives are also demareed as swarm control.. also i seem to have lost the queens and did not see any brood/eggs.

or she could have gone off lay because of this bad weather we had for past 2.5 weeks

I must admit my queens have slowed down with this weather but if you Demaree after you find queen cells you are likely to lose your queens in a swarm.

 

[joelsoo]

no i demareed before queen cells are present in bottom brood box, and they decided to make queen cells at bottom box after a few weeks of demareeing. As i moved brood from bottom BB to top BB in demareeing process, due to queen absence of top BB and with fresh brood, they formed QCs at the top of which i had to knock down after 5 or 6 days of each session of moving brood up. hatched brood frames i brought back down to give queen space.. but it seems they have impulse to make QC despite having loads of space below.

i only demareed with 1 super in between tho, should i be doing 2 supers in between so there's a bigger seperation?

 

[Erichalfbee]

2 supers yes and QCs at the top is what you expect
If they made queen cells at the bottom I would have nuc’d the queen and taken the Demaree down.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

i only demareed with 1 super in between tho, should i be doing 2 supers in between so there's a bigger seperation?

One super is fine, just you may not get many (if any) QCs

 

[joelsoo]

2 supers yes and QCs at the top is what you expect
If they made queen cells at the bottom I would have nuc’d the queen and taken the Demaree down.

I left them 1 QC on 12th May, thinking they will supercede the Queen but yesterday I checked, no brood and no eggs, can't find queen, and alot more queen cells. I knocked them down to 1 again if it happens again in 5 days, I will hunt her down and nuc her.

Problem is I already have alot of nucs in my apiary and its in an allotment. I supposed to have only 2 hives and 1 Nuc. I now have 3 hives and 3 nucs. Oh well...

 

[Erichalfbee]

I left them 1 QC on 12th May, thinking they will supercede the Queen but yesterday I checked, no brood and no eggs, can't find queen, and alot more queen cells. I knocked them down to 1 again if it happens again in 5 days, I will hunt her down and nuc her.

Problem is I already have alot of nucs in my apiary and its in an allotment. I supposed to have only 2 hives and 1 Nuc. I now have 3 hives and 3 nucs. Oh well...

I suspect she has gone and you have just made them hopelessly queen less so at least you can requeen them with one of your nucs

 

[joelsoo]

I suspect she has gone and you have just made them hopelessly queen less so at least you can requeen them with one of your nucs

No I kept 1 Queen cell in the brood box so if its still there if I check in a few days I'd let them requeen from this single queen cell. I didn't wanna keep 2 because this hive seem to have habit of casting...

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’m getting lost here
So there is no brood so where did the queen cells come from? If there is no brood you’ve had no queen laying there for 23 days.
Any strong colony will cast if you do nothing about it but I thought you said it hadn’t swarmed!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I’m getting lost here
So there is no brood so where did the queen cells come from? If there is no brood you’ve had no queen laying there for 23 days.
Any strong colony will cast if you do nothing about it but I thought you said it hadn’t swarmed!

https://images.app.goo.gl/a3dQrCxydZh2X9qL7

 

[joelsoo]

I’m getting lost here
So there is no brood so where did the queen cells come from? If there is no brood you’ve had no queen laying there for 23 days.
Any strong colony will cast if you do nothing about it but I thought you said it hadn’t swarmed!

ok start timeline again... on wed the 12th, i left them 1 QC at bottom BB and there are no eggs got some young larvae, and monday 24th i checked, there are more queen cells on the sides of the frames and i see no brood and no new eggs. i then knocked down all bottom QCs and leave 1 QC again.

maybe she had gone off lay before 12th or swarmed off and i didnt know...?

 

[Erichalfbee]

ok start timeline again... on wed the 12th, i left them 1 QC at bottom BB and there are no eggs got some young larvae, and monday 24th i checked, there are more queen cells on the sides of the frames and i see no brood and no new eggs. i then knocked down all bottom QCs and leave 1 QC again.

maybe she had gone off lay before 12th or swarmed off and i didnt know...?

So what happened to the QC you left on the 12th? Was it still there?
What was in the queen cells you removed?

 

[oliver90owner]

hatched brood frames i brought back down to give queen space..

Little wonder - unless you are one of those that don’t know the difference between hatching (eggs) and emerging (imago leaving the cocoon after the pupation stage).

 

[user 819]

Joe/joel sounds like you are blindly panicking, consider why/what you are removing before actually doing so. If a queen isn't present and very young day old larvae or eggs aren't present one can't keep removing the older QC's.

When you knocked down the QC's did you look in the QC's as Dani has mentioned ?

 

[user 819]

Joe/Joel once QL by removing said Q or because of swarming, with QC's mark 2 or 3 good ones with larvae in them (if poss on different frames) & use a drawing pin pushed in to the top of the top bar to identify the position of the cell below it on the frame (place the pin to one side of the C/L of the bar to indicate which side of the frame it is on).

Remove all other cells and try and age the cell if possible by larvae size.
Once you can age a cell (approx.. age within a day), you can then have an idea of when it will be sealed on about day 9 (3 days egg + 6 days as developing larvae). Once they are sealed remember the date line go in to the colony on about day 13 for QC's and reduce down to one cell & remove pin indicating it (the other two cells can be used to make up nucs and extra queens by removing the whole frame instead of cutting out). Whilst at it check frames properly shake off the bees but not the frame with a marked QC & remove any other QC's built which weren't marked. The frame left with the QC very carefully (don't shake or up turn it) brush or move the bees to check for other QC's not wanted.
One should then confidently be able to replace said frame close colony up and leave alone for 3 weeks to allow the bees to get on with it, too much fiddling and things can start to go wrong.