Drone laying queen

[RogerJ]

i have a "reasonably sized" swarm (collected 24th May) with a queen that appears to be only laying drone. Is it worth trying to ditch the Q and raise a new one from eggs/brood from another hive; buy in a new queen or just shake out?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

just shake them out

 

[Boston Bees]

i have a "reasonably sized" swarm (collected 24th May) with a queen that appears to be only laying drone. Is it worth trying to ditch the Q and raise a new one from eggs/brood from another hive; buy in a new queen or just shake out?

Shake out, but if it's a drone laying queen (rather than laying workers) I would remove and dispatch the queen first

 

[RogerJ]

Thanks both. Definitely a DLQ from the look of the brood. Is there a risk of the DLQ finding her way into another hive if not dispatched?

Whilst fully accepting your recommendations I am intrigued as to why it is not worthwhile trying to raise a new queen.

 

[madasafish]

Most of the hive will be OAPs and on their last gasp by the time you raise a queen and get her mated and laying.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Most of the hive will be OAPs and on their last gasp by the time you raise a queen and get her mated and laying.

You need young bees to make a decent queen

 

[RichardK]

Why not either:

1: buy in a mated queen immediately & introduc (get rid of the old queen before introduction)
2: let them raise a queen. If she's rubbish you can still introduced a mated queen later.

At least this way you get to keep, & hopefully benefit from the swarm.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why not either:

1: buy in a mated queen immediately & introduc (get rid of the old queen before introduction)
2: let them raise a queen. If she's rubbish you can still introduced a mated queen later.

At least this way you get to keep, & hopefully benefit from the swarm.

so you suggest spending good money buying in a queen to introduce to a colony of already old and knackered bees with atrophied mandibular and hypopharyngeal glands in the hope they will survive at least another four weeks of hard work trying to raise the first round of new brood?

 

[Erichalfbee]

so you suggest spending good money buying in a queen to introduce to a colony of already old and knackered bees with atrophied mandibular and hypopharyngeal glands in the hope they will survive at least another four weeks of hard work trying to raise the first round of new brood?

To be fair Richard probably doesn’t know how brood is raised or he wouldn’t have suggested it.
It’s a very important point to remember. Old bees are not up to it.

 

[RichardK]

so you suggest spending good money buying in a queen to introduce to a colony of already old and knackered bees with atrophied mandibular and hypopharyngeal glands in the hope they will survive at least another four weeks of hard work trying to raise the first round of new brood?

Yes.
The OP Can Always introduced a frame of brood from another hive to bolster the population and provide new, young bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes.
The OP Can Always introduced a frame of brood from another hive to bolster the population and provide new, young bees.

If you are going to do that you need a couple of frames of emerging brood. So you might as well make up a nuc for a new queen and add the old bees to it

 

[RogerJ]

So accepting the fact that it is not going to be worth buying/raising a new queen - would it be acceptable to just unite with another hive (having first dispatched the queen) rather than shaking out?

 

[Erichalfbee]

So accepting the fact that it is not going to be worth buying/raising a new queen - would it be acceptable to just unite with another hive (having first dispatched the queen) rather than shaking out?

Yes

 

[RogerJ]

Thanks again all. A job for when it has stopped raining!

 

[RichardK]

If you are going to do that you need a couple of frames of emerging brood. So you might as well make up a nuc for a new queen and add the old bees to it

I completely agree. I feel when people say "just shake them out" that they are sometimes loosing the value in those bees - yes they are old but they're not useless. I accept that as a relative beginner I probably want to save everything (or maybe it's just going the extra mile), however, I feel there is a tendency from some more experienced beekeepers to to just throw things away.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's a very misleading and incorrect statement, shaking them out is not 'throwing things away' it's just a quick and simple way of getting the bees out of a dead loss situation - once they are shaken out they will almost immediately look for a new home and beg their way into the nearest hive. I've seen shaken out bees all admitted into neighbouring hives, and the apiary looking as if nothing had happened within minutes. it is also far less risky than a 'proper' unite if you have a laying worker situation emerging as the shakeout tends to 'reset' the laying workers as being on the back foot on admittance to a queenright colony tends to mean they behave

 

[RichardK]

And your statement is misleading and incorrect.

Firstly it's not a dead loss situation - those bees still have value although we disagree on how to best maximise that.

Shaken out bees will both be accepted and not accepted into neighbouring hives. I've seen with my own eyes the bodies of those not accepted. And then of course who knows how many do not get in anywhere and simply die elsewhere. If you can point towards a study which illustrates what happens to bees once shaken out that would be interesting reading?

And finally the OP didn't mention drone laying workers. He mentioned a queen present in the hive but only laying drones. From that we can assume that the queen pheromones are still present (as the queen is still there) are suppressing DLW's.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

when you offer a practical and sensible option, I'll bite, so far all I've seen you offer is a load of hand wringing and 'advice' to plug on and waste good bought in queens where there is good chance of failure
I've done countless shakeouts, laying workers (they can only lay drones so no need to differentiate by accentuating the fact) drone laying queens and queenless colonies on their last legs, hardly ever witnessed loads of dead bees who have failed to be let in to other colonies (I accept there will be the occasional exception) and it's never been done to 'throw away good resource' but a way of making some good use of bees doomed to fail.
I'll accept that we are in the beginners section and it's obvious you have a lot to learn so I'll leave it there.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I completely agree. I feel when people say "just shake them out" that they are sometimes loosing the value in those bees - yes they are old but they're not useless. I accept that as a relative beginner I probably want to save everything (or maybe it's just going the extra mile), however, I feel there is a tendency from some more experienced beekeepers to to just throw things away.

My point was that these bees have little value to a colony in the grander scheme if things. There’s a difference between making a nuc with these bees and adding them to a nuc.
Shaking out is not throwing the bees away. If you can find the queen then yes you can add the bees to another colony. If you can’t dropping them in the grass in front of the other hives at least means that the queen won’t be allowed anywhere

 

[Erichalfbee]

Firstly it's not a dead loss situation - those bees still have value although we disagree on how to best maximise that.

But they are unable to sustain a colony.