Drone laying queen

[RichardK]

But they are unable to sustain a colony.

Not on their own, no. But they can help in establishing a new colony.

 

[RichardK]

when you offer a practical and sensible option, I'll bite, so far all I've seen you offer is a load of hand wringing and 'advice' to plug on and waste good bought in queens where there is good chance of failure

Honestly, I don’t want you to bite. Sometimes being a beginner is a good thing as you are not stuck in your ways which in turn allows you to challenge things to decide the best route for you. That may be right or wrong, either way you learn.

So far all you’ve offered is the age old ‘shake them out and get rid of them’ option. Erichalfbee offered a practical solution to in my view help maximise their value – use them as part of creating a new nuc. Now, as you well know that could be with a bought in queen or letting the colony raise their own...as I mentioned earlier. I accept that on their own either would be a challenge - but then I did suggest adding a frame of brood to bolster the population. Erichalfbee took what I regard as better route - use them to help bolster a new nuc. I think that's a good option.

Is a colony with a drone laying queen doomed to fail as you say? Again, I say absolutely not. Obviously the longer it goes on the harder the challenge is but one can’t make a sweeping statement that all are doomed to fail as that’s clearly not true.

 

[Erichalfbee]

No you misunderstood
There was talk iof adding a frame of brood.
That’s never enough you’d need two at least plus a good shake of nurse bees then a mated queen. A nuc.
I wasn’t actually suggesting it was done
It’s a waste of resources unless you were going to make that nuc up anyway.

 

[Redcap]

As a casual observer to this thread, I'm grateful for the greater knowledge and exchange of views by the usual stalwarts...helping the less knowledgable (eg me) to add another crumb of knowledge, reminding me as ever that the more I learn, the more I realise just how little I actually know about this fascinating craft....and keeping it friendly makes it rewarding for all

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is a colony with a drone laying queen doomed to fail as you say? Again, I say absolutely not.

And there you have just demonstrated your total ignorance as to how a colony works.
A colony without a queen that lays worker eggs cannot sustain itself
It cannot replace old and failing workers
It cannot expand, and is just doomed to dwindle and die.
The old and failing workers cannot maintain a new, vigorous laying queen for any period of time therefore, even with a new queen it will struggle to expand and make good
Old workers will also struggle to raise a new, viable queen from a frame of larvae, and by the time she is mated they will fail to tend the brood for another three weeks plus whilst the new bees come online.
A shakeout (with or without finding the queen) is a low risk way of getting rid of frames stuffed with drone brood whilst at the same time dispersing the remaining worker bees to other colonies where they may be of some use before they die.
a little bit of thinking is needed here

 

[RichardK]

And there you have just demonstrated your total ignorance as to how a colony works.
A colony without a queen that lays worker eggs cannot sustain itself

And now you're just twisting my words with your condescending attitude. Really?! Obviously intervention is required of some sort.

For other beginners out there, let me explain my experience with a hive whose queen disappeared, where workers then became drone layers & where I didn't want to reduce my already small number of colonies without a fight. Shaking out, or uniting are NOT the only options, in spite of what some will tell you.

This is what you would describe as a "dead loss situation", whereas I as an optimistic beginner regard as an "opportunity".

First off, here are 2 pictures of my 'dead loss' nuc taken today:



Not too shabby for a dead loss. And with 3 frames of brood to boot.

Some history:
By mid February the hive (as it was then) was on 8 frames of brood, then cold weather hit 5-21st March and then snow on April 2nd. At some point the queen disappeared.

I didn’t diagnose that I had drone laying workers soon enough, hence the problem was quite bad by the time I did something. I’m guestimating that I lost the queen around the 15th March.

15/3: queen lost

14/4: quite a significant drone population in the hive. Hive removed and shaken out 80 metres or so away following the advice on The Apiarist specifically aimed at those of us with low colony numbers (who are more likely to want to do this). Replacement hive put in original location with small frame of open brood from donor hive.

65 days after queen lost…

19/5: 2.5 frames of eggs seen and the new queen.

26/5: no queen. I must have injured her on the last inspection. 10 or so queen cells present. Split hive into 2 nucs, sharing the 2.5 brood frames between them – c. 5 / 6 queen cells each. To be clear that means one nuc had 1 frame of brood and the other 1.5 frames.

12/6: eggs and new queen seen.

2/7: first new workers expected to emerge.

Obviously there are still two weeks to go and the population is dropping every day, but I’m hopeful. Assuming it succeeds I come out of this with 2 colonies rather than your ‘dead loss’, both of which are calm and with seemingly good laying queens (at least in brood quantity).

Now, I don't deny that shaking out or combining are options. However, I disagree that they are the only options. This hive / now 2 nucs will have survived on 3.5 frames of brood for 79 days if they make it through the next 2 weeks. There are absolutely old bees in there with some younger ones. The first 65 day period with just one not very big frame of eggs / larvae is particularly good going when average worker life expectancy is only around 5 weeks. Stores were very good which I assume reduced the need to forage and hence increased life longevity.

This has taken time, not much work and lots of patience.

 

[Boston Bees]

This thread should be shaken out

 

[RichardK]

This thread should be shaken out

I think you'll find it can be saved ... with patience.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think you'll find it can be saved ... with patience.

But will it survive the winter?

 

[RichardK]

But will it survive the winter?

Without a doubt. Only mid June, 3 frames of brood - it'll move up to a hive by the end of August & then the ivy will come in in September.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Without a doubt. Only mid June, 3 frames of brood - it'll move up to a hive by the end of August & then the ivy will come in in September.

No, the thread. I was joshing

I have a cast in a bait hive. Arrived five days ago. Three seams of bees. No brood. I’m sure they will survive the winter too

 

[RichardK]

No, the thread. I was joshing

I have a cast in a bait hive. Arrived five days ago. Three seams of bees. No brood. I’m sure they will survive the winter too

I wasn't sure...so I took the serious response ! I also had a cast swarm 18 days ago. Lovely bees. I recently met a Russian guy keeping bees (Carnica) about 2km from me as the crow flies so I'm wondering if I'm getting some nice swarms thanks to him...I know nothing about Carnica. He has 50 hives, looking to double this year. My neighbour thought he was a New Zealander but it turns out he's Russian and speak some English and even less French....it was a tricky conversation.