Drone Importance

[BeeBeeKa]

Banu Yukel of Eig university and and Mohsin Dogaroglu ot the University of Thrace (both in Turkey) Based on field tests and compared to controls testing both fumagilin anf Thymol over successive years - there are others as well

I.e. I found this article, mentioned Yucel and Dogaroglu, interesting :
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-nosema-twins-part-5-alternative-treatments/
“A promising alternative that really catches my attention is good old thymol—which is widely used for varroa treatment, and as a disinfectant and fungicide. Braga, et al (2007) found that its mode of action against the yeast Candida was to affect the “architecture of the [fungal] envelope,” thus hampering its infectivity. Well, it apparently also may control nosema when used in the form of thymolated syrup (doesn’t that term just roll off the tongue nicely?). I came across a reference to it in a state newsletter, which had picked it up from another, and yet another, and finally got to the original paper by Rice (2001) from Australia. What had piqued my curiosity was that all the references gave the recommended concentration as 0.44mM, which is a rather precise chemical term that no beekeeper would ever use. Rice apparently back-calculated that specific concentration from a recipe used by a beekeeper named Brown, who likely got it from another, Manley (1946, which I downloaded from the Australian library), who got it from a long letter from a Dr. Killick, who thought that the addition of thymol would make sugar syrup convert to a more natural “honey”—nosema wasn’t even mentioned. Rice then tested thymol against nosema, but used analogous lab surrogates–the Corn Earworm infected by Nosema vespula, which infects European wasps. For some reason, he also used weaker concentrations than 0.44mM—0.15 and 0.30mM. Anyway, he found that thymol killed N. vespula in caterpillars. He also discusses possible modes of action of thymol against nosema. It appears to me that the 0.44mM strength is based upon an old arbitrary concentration intended for another purpose, that serendipitously happened to also be effective against nosema in Australia.
Well folks, Rice’s was a great study, but I really couldn’t call it a slam dunk for our purposes. However, Yucel and Dogaroglu (2005), in Turkey, performed a controlled trial comparing thymol against fumagillin. The authors fed infected colonies 150ml of light (30%) syrup at weekly intervals for 4 weeks (for a total of 600ml, or approximately 2½ cups), both spring and fall. The treatment syrups contained either thymol at 0.44mM (they must’ve read Rice), or Fumidil-B at 1 gram per feeding (this is approximately the label rate for the small colonies they studied, but in less syrup); the controls were plain syrup. The treatments were continued for 3 years, in order to cleanse the colonies of residual nosema spores (the authors state that the infection was by N. apis, but had no reason to suspect that the colonies could actually have been additionally infected by N. ceranae).
The results were impressive for thymol! Over the term of the experiment, both fumagillin and thymol decreased colony losses, and increased number of bees, amount of brood, and honey yield, but thymol did the better job in every parameter measured! Plus, the thymolated colonies had fewer winter losses. Note that the study used only a small amount of very light syrup. The authors hypothesized that the syrup would be concentrated by the bees, thus effecting a stronger concentration of thymol once processed by the bees. Also note that it took three years of either treatment to really get nosema spore counts down!
With great hopes I fed several hundred gallons of thymolated syrup to my own infected colonies. Unfortunately, my results do not support the efficacy of thymol, nor do other short trials that I have seen from Europe and Canada. I am currently testing it at 3x strength. It may yet prove to be effective in the long term, but I’d consider it experimental for the time being.”

There is a lot of studies indicating failure of fumagilin to cope with nosema novadays. I.e.” Nosema ceranae Escapes Fumagillin Control in Honey Bees” : http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.ppat.1003185
(See a list of references in there too).
Thus I`m on a side of thymolated syrup in regard of nosema so far.

 

[BeeBeeKa]

You keep using the words 'perfect/perfection' - would you care to take a stab at defining what you mean by 'perfection' ? (It won't be easy )

Do you ask a foreigner to explain you a meaning of an English word? Ok, I`ll try. A perfection is an ideal state of whether a subject or an object. Easy enough… Surely any answer can generate a lot of further questions , I.e. “would you care to take a stab at defining what you mean by 'Ideal'” … and that is a potentially endless process. The way out of this process is normally giving a loop I.e. :”The Ideal state is a state of whether a subject or an object that has reached a perfection.” Anybody provoking Off Topic deserves a good loop
Chears

 

[Little John]

Beginning to realise that whilst there is wealth of knowledge ,especially here, and hugely experienced Beeks, who are generous in their giving of advice. I , in my opinion, see mammoth posts quoting all sorts of interventionist methodology, some essential, at times.......BUT..... Very little on more natural forms of Beekeeping, as in working with the Bees and following their lead, as opposed to intensively trying to farm and control them.

Unfortunately - thanks to a guy named Aristotle - we in the West have learned to polarise just about everything we have experience of (including the keeping of bees) in terms of 'them and us'. Most of the friction between 'Natural Beekeepers' and 'Conventional Beekeepers' stems from this polarised division - you either subscribe to one ideology, or the other. And it's developed into a kind of 'tribal' thing.

There are a few of us, however, who can see benefits in embracing aspects of both approaches - indeed, I have come to view beekeeping as rather more of a continuum, rather than as two distinct groups:

One of the problems with the 'natural' approach is that in practice it tends to attract those with extreme views which are often based on conjecture rather than experience, and as a result a kind of 'religious following' has been formed. Which is a shame, because there are one or two really sound ideas in that approach.

Me ? Along with a fair few other, I sit firmly within the 'middle ground', not so much 'sitting on the fence' or 'undecided', but seeing positive ideas from both sides.

Receiving flack from both sides, it can be an uncomfortable place to be - but I ain't shifting ...

LJ

 

[Little John]

Do you ask a foreigner to explain you a meaning of an English word? Ok, I`ll try. A perfection is an ideal state of whether a subject or an object. Easy enough… Surely any answer can generate a lot of further questions , I.e. “would you care to take a stab at defining what you mean by 'Ideal'” … and that is a potentially endless process. The way out of this process is normally giving a loop I.e. :”The Ideal state is a state of whether a subject or an object that has reached a perfection.” Anybody provoking Off Topic deserves a good loop
Chears

Well, here you go ... this is the conclusion reached by one of the world's (alleged) greatest thinkers:

" .... it [the idea of a nature more perfect than mine] had been placed in me by a nature which was in reality more perfect than mine, and which possessed within itself all the perfections of which I could form any idea; that is to say, in a single word, which was God."
Descartes, R., A Discourse on Method (pub.1637), Everyman, 1994, p.xvii

So - if you consider that God is but another word for Nature (which is my view) - then Nature IS perfect. QED

Fun this, ennit ?

LJ

 

[mintmoth]

If fertilisation occurs - regardless of the origins of the egg and sperm, then a worker will result...

LJ

Thanks for your reply, LJ.

Since I posted, i've been having a search around, and found these sites -
http://honeybee.drawwing.org/book/diploid-drones

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetic_aspects_queen_production_1.html

(I think I'm getting in over my head now )

 

[BeeBeeKa]

“So if you consider that Pudding is but another word for Nature (which is my view) - then Nature IS perfect. QED”… I`m sorry, but it sounds for me – this way
Back to ON Topic: I noticed that at least 2 of my hives ( the strongest ones ) still have some drones that happily and impressively walk in and out of the entrances. They seem to be important.. for themselves al least Just like some of us
It looks like if the hive has plenty of stores, the bees do not mind drones at all, so they do not get evicted. Can anyone else confirm this?

 

[Finman]

It looks like if the hive has plenty of stores, the bees do not mind drones at all, so they do not get evicted. Can anyone else confirm this?

I bet that no one. That is not a fact what beekeeping handbooks say about drones. Read some.

.

 

[oliver90owner]

They don't seem to mind undersized drones. Perhaps your drones are undersized?

 

[Tom Bick]

I noticed that at least 2 of my hives ( the strongest ones ) still have some drones that happily and impressively walk in and out of the entrances. They seem to be important.. for themselves al least Just like some of us
It looks like if the hive has plenty of stores, the bees do not mind drones at all, so they do not get evicted. Can anyone else confirm this?

Some people say that on rare occasions colonies overwinter with some drones in the hive and I don't know if it's right or wrong but if I had to choose would think it could happen. The other possibilities of having drones at the entrance of your hive during this time of year is the possibility you have a drone laying queen or even laying workers.

Just to go back to the summer months a healthy colony will be very happy to have a good population of drones in the hive. If the weather takes a turn for the worse and the bees are slightly stressed by this then you see the drones hiding from the workers. If the conditioned don't improve then you see drones been evicted from the hive mid season. The drones hiding in the hive always make me smile.

 

[BeeBeeKa]

That is not a fact what beekeeping handbooks say about drones. Read some.

I know, my friend I read some, believe me

The other possibilities of having drones at the entrance of your hive during this time of year is the possibility you have a drone laying queen or even laying workers.

They don't seem to mind undersized drones. Perhaps your drones are undersized?

I know how drones look like if one gets a drone laying Quinn, as I was that one in July this year . I`ve got that faulty Quinn in a nuke… She was replaced thereafter with a good one by the same person… I took it as a valuable experience as I know a proper protocol now: how to act in the similar circumstances.
My present drones look big and healthy (I do not see many, no worries, I saw just a few), my bees are vigorous, proactive, and like to play (just like children) at an entrance when weather permits… It gives me an impression that they are very happy that we managed to get rid of almost all varroa mites, and probably some nosema and others nasty “basty” during a long term ( ~2 month) of thymol varroa treatment.
I did my last hive inspection on 15/11/14(for what I was criticized already, so… not worth an effort again ), thus I am pretty sure that all my colonyes are absolutely fine
P.S. I saw drone eviction in one of my hives. I reported about it on 10/10/14 here: http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=444656&postcount=7
I also saw drone larva thrown out of my strongest colony earlier ( in September, I think). Some drones managed to be left in this hive somehow nevertheless

 

[Finman]

.
What we have learned now from this chain. My opinion is that few drones in winter are not worth of theory. I have met them sometimes.

 

[pargyle]

Unfortunately - thanks to a guy named Aristotle - we in the West have learned to polarise just about everything we have experience of (including the keeping of bees) in terms of 'them and us'. Most of the friction between 'Natural Beekeepers' and 'Conventional Beekeepers' stems from this polarised division - you either subscribe to one ideology, or the other. And it's developed into a kind of 'tribal' thing.

There are a few of us, however, who can see benefits in embracing aspects of both approaches - indeed, I have come to view beekeeping as rather more of a continuum, rather than as two distinct groups:

One of the problems with the 'natural' approach is that in practice it tends to attract those with extreme views which are often based on conjecture rather than experience, and as a result a kind of 'religious following' has been formed. Which is a shame, because there are one or two really sound ideas in that approach.

Me ? Along with a fair few other, I sit firmly within the 'middle ground', not so much 'sitting on the fence' or 'undecided', but seeing positive ideas from both sides.

Receiving flack from both sides, it can be an uncomfortable place to be - but I ain't shifting ...

LJ

Well I'm probably just a fair bit to the left of the middle ground - I dislike the term 'Natural' Beekeepers as it does not really describe the reality of what 'low interference' beekeeping is about. As for CRANKS ... well, I don't think that Cranks is what I would describe people who are at the extremes of my style of beekeeping any more than I would describe those people who seek to maximise honey crops and harvest most, if not all, of the honey from a hive as 'Exploiters'.

I think the people who site themselves at either extreme end of your continium I would describe as 'ZEALOTS' ... the people who cannot see any other viewpoint than their own and close their mind to anything that does not meet with their narrow views. I know a few of these at both extremes of beekeeping and it is often they who make the most noise ...but isn't this just a reflection of the world in general ?

I too consider myself 'middle ground' albeit to the 'left' of the craft and whilst, in the past, I have taken some 'flak' for my left of centre views I have found, more recently, that there is a growing majority of beekeepers who have more moderate views and tolerate those who - with some justification - follow a different beekeeping path. The one common factor that I have found in most beekeepers I talk to is that they all care deeply about the colonies they maintain - even those I would brand as Zealots appear to have this in common.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Well I'm probably just a fair bit to the left of the middle ground

I would be extreme right, extreme left... and bang in the middle all at the same time, as i find all ways of keeping bees interesting.

 

[pargyle]

I would be extreme right, extreme left... and bang in the middle all at the same time, as i find all ways of keeping bees interesting.

Open minded as always Pete ... I too like a very broad fence to sit on - less pain in the bum that way !